Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street  (Read 3664 times)

Offline TGU

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 10:54:46 PM »
I'd heard that the police threw the protesters' belongings, including tents, into a garbage truck.  Is that true?  If so, how the fuck do they get off with that?
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Online DarthParadox

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 11:02:37 PM »
Because they're the police, and it's becoming increasingly impossible to hold police accountable for gross malfeasance in this country.  Goddammit.
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Offline Cytherea

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 11:03:50 PM »
Because they're the police, and it's becoming increasingly impossible to hold police anyone in any kind of position of authority accountable for gross malfeasance in this country.  Goddammit.

FTFY.

Offline Pixie

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2011, 03:45:19 AM »
TGU-- I saw that very thing live from someone's cell phone feed. I didn't see much because of how quickly the feeds were dropping, but that part was crystal clear. Some people who were arrested are asking for return of backpacks, medication and so on, and people are having to tell them what happened.

This video appears to show someone being grabbed by the neck around 40 seconds in:
Veterans attacked and arrested at Occupy Boston Small | Large
I don't think there's evidence for the kind of police violence they're claiming--I think the fact that it was night and they were frightened and treated roughly accounts for that feeling--but I don't have a lot of doubt that the police acted far more aggressively than was necessary towards protesters who were peaceful by every account I've heard (the police aren't claiming otherwise, and media who were there say the protesters resisted peacefully). If she's the same one from the photo, she was at the very front line and a Veteran for Peace.

Edit: Reading more carefully, it appears that the person in the photo and the person in the video are different. The person in the VIDEO was http://twitter.com/#!/racheljmcneill --VFP.
People claiming to be friends of the person in the photo are saying she's a civilian.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 03:49:28 AM by Pixie »

Offline machiavelli33

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2011, 06:54:07 AM »
The police in NY didn't get slapped for the hundreds of brutish and unlawful arrests they conducted on the Wall St. crowd in Manhattan. 
The one guy who peppersprayed the crowd like he was handing out fliers is currently "under investigation" by the police.  Whoop-dee-doo.
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Offline TGU

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2011, 11:58:01 AM »
This is making me a bit more nervous about going down to Occupy Portland tomorrow, though so far things seem to be pretty calm between the protesters and the police.  It's nice to see the Portland PD showing a bit of restraint.
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Offline TIP

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2011, 11:58:37 AM »
It's nice to see the Portland PD showing a bit of restraint.
They're probably too stoned to get violent.
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Offline Pixie

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2011, 12:37:59 PM »
I think what we've seen in all cases is that they're unlikely to move in without warning. In every case I've heard of so far, there was a good deal of time between when the police ANNOUNCED they were going to start making arrests and when they did. I think you can go down without fear of a sudden police attack--if they say they're coming, you can just duck out of it. :)

Offline Malk

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2011, 12:55:55 PM »
I think these protests are a great thing.  It's awesome seeing people, you know, actually fucking doing something... but *ahem*...

Imagine you're a beat cop.  You make $16.35 an hour.  Your benefits are up on the chopping block so that the governor can afford to fuel his private jet the state's jet.  You have a family and people who love you at home and your biggest goal for the day is getting home safely and on-time (so that you don't get called in, bitched out and written up by your supervisor for daring to accrue overtime). 

Now, one day you show up to work and get handed a riot shield and told, hey go stand in front of those angry people who are, apparently, angry about many things (not the least of which is restrictions of their inherent freedoms) and restrict their freedom.  So, yeah... now you're standing in riot gear, which is a good 10 to 15 degrees hotter than everyone around you, surrounded by throngs of angry people who GREATLY outnumber you and, for the most part, see you as the most visible face of the entity that they're angry at.

All it will take is for one toolbox in the crowd to throw a bottle or commit some minor criminal action that prompts response.  You have the option to ignore it and, subsequently, look weak... therefore inviting escalating actions from the original toolbox and the resulting copy-cats who have been emboldened by your lack of action.  OR you can dive into the crowd, arrest the toolbox and subsequently become the target of ire for all those around said toolbox who may or may not have witnessed the arrestable infraction and may or may not attempt to do you harm to protect their compatriots' civil rights.

Imagine how pants-shittingly terrifying a prospect that is.

Sure, you have a gun, but if you fire it for anything less than some guy mowing down the crowd with an AK-47 you're going to be mobbed and likely beaten to death by an angry mob.  TASER and Pepperspray... you're on YouTube, edited to show you in the worst possible light, and up for investigation in less than 10 minutes.

and GUESS WHAT?!?  Our living situations are just as fucked as the protestors.  We agree with a lot of what's being said.  Our goal out there is protect civil rights, though, and that means EVERYONE'S civil rights.  From the protestors, to the average taxpayer who should not be asked to foot the bill because someone hucked a bottle at a street light and busted it.

I'd heard that the police threw the protesters' belongings, including tents, into a garbage truck.  Is that true?  If so, how the fuck do they get off with that?

Because the guy with more bars on his uniform than yours told you to and you've grown accustomed to, you know, eating and living in a house.  So you just do what you're told like a good little soldier.

Because they're the police, and it's becoming increasingly impossible to hold police accountable for gross malfeasance in this country.  Goddammit.

So, the camera and microphone wired to me and my car that I *can't* shut off during a traffic stop that allows my sergeant to monitor me at all times.  The video that is produced by the system that cannot be modified by anyone, up to and including the civilian contractors who maintain the servers and is public record that can be requested and obtained by anyone who wants it.  Anything in those videos can be used, at random, as justification for reprimands up to and including termination at pretty much any time (not to mention civil lawsuits).  None of that is any sort of accountability?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 01:14:01 PM by Malk »

Offline Narcissa

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 02:16:06 PM »
It's not real accountability if prosecutors, attorneys, judges, appeals judges, supreme court justices, and the president of the US feel compelled to favor the law enforcement officers.

Not that individual officers aren't held accountable - they often get in trouble, suspended with or without pay, or even lose their jobs. But the institution that creates this situation - higher ups and higher ups and faceless nameless higher ups, with orders coming down to the average guy, get off scott free. The chief of police doesn't get on the chopping block until after a lot of individual police officers have already lost their jobs due to being given bad orders and bad training.

The police in Portland and Seattle, and in smaller Pacific Northwest towns as well, are for the most part treating the protesters as human beings with rights. Seattle PD has had a lot of public trouble recently, so I think appearing weak (also called friendly, respectful, on-our-side) is definitely a good PR idea for them right now.  I think the political attitudes of the general public, including police, in this area are more in line with the Occupy movement, and I think since they are both literally AND figuratively "standing with" people, they are getting more goodwill from the people and vice versa, in mutual exchange.

Now, being in full riot gear and thus raising your body temperature is actually a valid psychochemical reason for quickness to anger.  However, it is vital for officers to receive training to deal with the temptation to jump down a protester's throat at the first sign of twitchiness. Again, I blame the institution for this. Police chiefs are often elected by the public, rather than being promoted by expertise. Training programs are being cut. Sensitivity training, riot training, SWAT, situational training, are all suffering. Budget cuts that are affecting police departments around the country are the same budget cuts affecting my university and causing me to pay twice the tuition that I would have paid last year. It's the same problem that's affecting homeless people who paid $400,000 on their house worth $150,000 but still owed another $500,000 and had their homes foreclosed.

Now I'm not saying cops, or ANYONE should walk off their job for this movement. That is a terrible idea. Dropping out of school is probably also a bad idea, unless you realize that your area of study is obsolete in the current economic climate (if you go to school in 2 years, tuition might have gone down, and you won't have to pay those 2 years of interest on your loans). But it might be better for everyone if the police in the areas that have had major arrests take time to try to sympathize with the protesters.

Meanwhile, destroying someone's property IS a violation of their rights. Police occasionally have rights to confiscate people's property and even sell it at auction to raise money for the police department under very special circumstances (and I think even that is a breach of the Bill of Rights). They do not, however, have a right to destroy that property, especially before the people are even charged with anything. And they didn't have a right to break up the assembly on the grounds of "unlawful assembly" unless the legal definition of "unlawful assembly" includes "standing somewhere for more than 10 seconds after a police officer tells you not to." Which seems like that, in itself, would be unconstitutional.
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Offline Cytherea

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2011, 02:44:15 PM »
A friend of mine lives in New York City and is inclined towards, amongst other things, journalism and photojournalism. He went to check out Occupy Wall Street this morning, and wrote up what he found in his typical fashion; I think some of you might find it interesting.

Source is here, and for the link-o-phobes, full text:

(click to show/hide)

Offline catfishncod

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2011, 02:47:37 PM »
Now, one day you show up to work and get handed a riot shield and told, hey go stand in front of those angry people who are, apparently, angry about many things (not the least of which is restrictions of their inherent freedoms) and restrict their freedom.  So, yeah... now you're standing in riot gear, which is a good 10 to 15 degrees hotter than everyone around you, surrounded by throngs of angry people who GREATLY outnumber you and, for the most part, see you as the most visible face of the entity that they're angry at.....

Because the guy with more bars on his uniform than yours told you to and you've grown accustomed to, you know, eating and living in a house.  So you just do what you're told like a good little soldier.

See, there's the issue. I know it's hard for the protestor at the front sometimes, since s/he is the one actually manhandled at 1:30am by police officers that REALLY would rather be at home in bed (those had to be off-shift people, or else half of Boston wasn't being patrolled right then), but you guys are not at fault. I really thought America collectively learned this lesson with Vietnam, I honestly did, and I think overall they have; it's just that people aren't thinking straight when the hammer falls. (For instance, polls show that no matter what people think of the Iraq and Afghan wars, they uniformly 90+% support the troops. That's progress.) Most of the people afterwards are blaming the Mayor or someone in his office for arbitrarily deciding that the protest shall only be one block in size -- as is proper.

But that doesn't do you any good with the one idiot who's liable to throw a bottle at you.

Quote
So, the camera and microphone wired to me and my car that I *can't* shut off during a traffic stop that allows my sergeant to monitor me at all times.  The video that is produced by the system that cannot be modified by anyone, up to and including the civilian contractors who maintain the servers and is public record that can be requested and obtained by anyone who wants it.  Anything in those videos can be used, at random, as justification for reprimands up to and including termination at pretty much any time (not to mention civil lawsuits).  None of that is any sort of accountability?

Sure, you can be held accountable by your superiors. Can your superiors be held accountable if they hide film and obstruct justice, though? (I ask seriously -- though 'the civilian contractors who maintain the servers' is a good start, it's not everything).

Narcissa, as I posted earlier, I was down at Occupy Boston about twelve hours before all the shizzle went down. At that time, there were all of two beat cops surveying the scene, and the signs communicating with officialdom were all on one side -- the side OPPOSITE the future arrest site. (No one was at the arrest site; in fact, I sat there and studied because it was much quieter.) The signs said, "We <3 Boston PD" and "Thank you for the bike racks, Mr. Mayor" (referring to the portable fencing placed on the Summer St. side of the camp, which indeed was being used as a bike rack).

Apparently the decision to start settling the next block of the Greenway was taken AFTER the protest march, when more people wanted to stay than could be accommodated. Since the excuse that the Mayor's precious plants were being disturbed was a weak one -- and was promptly dropped when the officers had to step on plants themselves to carry out the arrests -- my guess is that either the Mayor or someone in his office panicked when the marches obstructed some streets on Monday and decided they could tolerate Dewey Square but not random traffic jams. Which, in all honesty, _is_ a fair fear in the bird's nest that downtown Boston's screwy streets create. That said, there doesn't seem to have been _any_ attempt at negotiation on the part of the city government. (Where exactly were they supposed to go to request expansion of the campsite at 5pm on a government holiday?) THAT is what disturbs me: the implication being that the city has the right to determine the limits of our First Amendment rights and we have to wait for elections or a court order to disagree. It was just a wee too fast a hammer-swing.
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Offline Pixie

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2011, 05:38:56 PM »
The police in Portland and Seattle, and in smaller Pacific Northwest towns as well, are for the most part treating the protesters as human beings with rights. Seattle PD has had a lot of public trouble recently, so I think appearing weak (also called friendly, respectful, on-our-side) is definitely a good PR idea for them right now.  I think the political attitudes of the general public, including police, in this area are more in line with the Occupy movement, and I think since they are both literally AND figuratively "standing with" people, they are getting more goodwill from the people and vice versa, in mutual exchange.

This is part of what makes me so sad about this whole thing. When I was there, it was exactly like this:

Narcissa, as I posted earlier, I was down at Occupy Boston about twelve hours before all the shizzle went down. At that time, there were all of two beat cops surveying the scene, and the signs communicating with officialdom were all on one side -- the side OPPOSITE the future arrest site. (No one was at the arrest site; in fact, I sat there and studied because it was much quieter.) The signs said, "We <3 Boston PD" and "Thank you for the bike racks, Mr. Mayor" (referring to the portable fencing placed on the Summer St. side of the camp, which indeed was being used as a bike rack).

There was SO much positive sentiment from the protesters towards the police and the city for treating them with respect. There were signs in support of the police. An officer apparently joined in with a chant at one point. There was a big poster up on the wall divided into sections-- "What is right with America" and "What is wrong with America" with space for people to write on it. The biggest thing written on the half about things that are right was "Boston PD". People from the protest were tweeting thanks at the police department's twitter account. It showed every sign of being something different, just like Seattle and Portland are now. And then the mayor ordered them in in the middle of the night to arrest 140 people and destroy their stuff, and all that good sentiment went to shit. I was praising the police department all over the place before, and I'm still defending them now--I want to give an honest appraisal of what happened, and be clear that I don't think that grabbing someone by the neck is appropriate in ANY peaceful scenario, but the claims of "police brutality" are bothering me as much as any other aspect of this. Between the protesters, the police and the mayor, that positive and cooperative relationship has been thrown out entirely. The mood seems very antagonistic, now. And the more dramatic the protesters get, the more good sentiment from the public they squander, because it rings false. And that's silly because, as Johnny said, there's enough worrisome stuff in the FACTS of this whole thing that there's simply no need to exaggerate or cry wolf.

Offline Narcissa

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 06:15:41 PM »
Quick question on the throwing away people's possessions part: Was it a garbage truck or a nearby dumpster? The articles I've been reading seem to say dumpster, but I've heard garbage truck as well.

If it was a dumpster, are there any accounts of people going dumpster-diving to retrieve the stolen property? Surely someone should have done that in order to restore things to their rightful owners.
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Offline Pixie

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 06:32:29 PM »
I don't know if there were dumpsters too, but from the live feed I saw, they were definitely garbage trucks. I immediately sent out a tweet to the OB account asking if I was really seeing the cops throwing tents into them. I was pretty shocked.

Quote
@Occupy_Boston Are they throwing tents in to trash trucks? That's what it looks like from this cell phone feed


Offline TGU

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2011, 08:32:20 PM »
Speakers from Occupy Portland


Nick, the guy who starts talking at 2:20, is a friend of mine.  He is currently serving in the Army, and is volunteering his services to Occupy Portland, patrolling the camp at night as a peacekeeper.  His "speech" is a little disjointed, but the sentiment behind it makes me fiercely proud to know him.
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2011, 09:22:40 PM »
Awesome. His speech was the best of any on that video, in my opinion. Anti-capitalist guy was fun, but taking that position is dangerous for a speaker in this movement. Too many of them and it could kill the movement.
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Offline Bunner_Redux

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2011, 09:31:57 PM »
Occupy Wall Street?

*head tilt* Wasn't that a sub-campaign in Red Alert 2?

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Offline phobos

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2011, 11:42:50 PM »
Well, that didn't take long. Cultural movement, 5, 4, 3, 2... marketing. They're going for the righteous indignation dollar. That's a big dollar. A lot of people are feeling that indignation. We've done research - huge market. They're doing a good thing...
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Offline KnightOfNi

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Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2011, 05:42:20 AM »
I don't feel like Ben and Jerry's is doing a terrible thing here, or trying to co-opt the movement in any way. They've got an excellent history of being good corporate citizens, and have the cred to back up a move like this, despite being owned by unilever. It would be a totally different situation if it were, say, Wendys pulling the same thing.
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