McDonalds had better start supersizing on the Merlot shakes then!

Citation, please.

Seven:  *snerk*

Badger: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/03/31/wine.heart.wmd/

There's one link, just google it or something if you want more. Youll see its the flavanoids not the alcohol that make red wine so good for you. I also read somewhere else that its only red wine and red grape juice. The white wine and grape juice dont do much at all. Its pretty interesting.

The flavanoids are whats really good for you, which is in any type of alcohol. Also in fruit juice, and green tea. The clogs that cause a heart attack also increase risks of dementia so a healthy heart also helps. I know green tea prevents dementia and juice has the same flavanoids.

What absolutive statements? I'm not an absolutionist.
And I've made my point allready and  I don't feel anything you've posted contradicts it.
I could start posting studies and statistics on how many people die in alchol related deseases, how many are killed while driving under the influence, how many cases of domestic abuse can be tied to substance abuse etc etc.
Or we could just trust the majority of goverments on earth, most health awareness groups, the medical system and acknowledge the fact the benefits of various drugs (and other addictive substances) does not outweigh the negative effects.
Of course some drugs are less bad than other drugs (I think society would be a little different if most people started their day with a shot of heroin instead of coffee) but my point does admitt that some drugs are worse than others.

I just think it's a lot healthier to view all drugs as bad (which I also think is true) because once you do you get aware of the fact that you should pay some attention to what your doing and that decreases the level of danger associated with use immensly, often to the point where the drug becomes completly harmless (and yes, perhaps even beneficial).
But that's down on the individual level which doesn't really matter that much.


And yeah, beer has been important for nutrition for a long time (ancient Egypt actually, some 4000+ years ago) but the historical beer was quite different from what we now view as beer, and equally important the society is quite different as well.

I'm not really thinking about coffee as a drug (and since I think in Swedish I differentiate between things like drugs and medication since drugs doesn't include medication) but yes it's an addicting substance so it's valid to the conversation. And technically it is a very mild drug and on a global scale probably not very healthy so yes, coffee is bad. Now please do not get hung up on this because yes I do realise that it's close to a zero sum equation.

And sinic, is everything you do good for you? I mean, driving a car destroys the enviroment and waste resources yet we do it anyway. Sitting in a chair for 8 hours at work is bad for the body, yet we do it anyway. There's so many things that aren't really good for us that we still do, and drugs are just one of them. Thinking that drugs are good stuff that has no ill effects is just stupid because if you want to reduce a risk you first have to acknowledge it.

And I've left plenty of wiggle room. All the way from bad as in coffee (which perhaps can give you an ulcer and make you very sligthly addicted to it) up to metaphmetamine or a bad dose of acid that will fuck you up permantly.
About the only good drug I can think of is "runners-high" which probably has a very positive effect on both individuals and on a higher level. But even that can suck if your stuck on a plane for 14 hours or something.

That was exactly the absolutist attitude I was referring to, sinic.

Caffeine is a drug.  It's even available in pill form if you don't care to be bothered to drink coffee, tea, or soda.

CCK - I tend to think, myself, that the things you mention like drunk driving have nothing to do with alcohol itself.  Responsible drinkers can go their entire lives and never drive drunk, develop cirrhosis, or even become intoxicated.  Drunk driving and the diseases associated with alcohol are symptoms of the same social disease that gives us obesity - the philosophical worship of excess and the deterioration of personal responsibility.  A responsible eater will not become obese, a responsible drinker will not become a habitual drunk or a drunk driver, a responsible pot smoker will not become an addict.

Miss_N:  I must ask again for a citation.  The flavonoids don't seem to be the only benefit to alcohol consumption, so I'd like some evidence for your claim to that.  Please do try and realize that the noted heart health benefits aren't the only claimed beneficial uses of alcohol, so there's no need to confine yourself to that topic exclusively any more.  I'd specifically love to hear some evidence about flavonoids and dementia, or bone density.

In at least one of the studies regarding alcohol and dementia, the type of alcohol consumed didn't matter at all.  Red wine, white wine, liquor or beer, all seemed to have the same effects.  I know certain dark beers are pretty heavy on the flavonoids, but what about vodka or rum?  If red wine (red grape juice) has things white wine (white grape juice) doesn't have, but "The flavanoids are whats really good for you, which is in any type of alcohol," then what precisely is it about red wine (red grape juice) that makes it better than white wine (white grape juice)?  Which are you saying, that in opposition to your earlier statement, there *isn't* a difference between red and white, or that one gets the same health benefits whether one drinks grape juice, green tea, red wine, or Scotch?

Do please clarify.

Drug Use:  Self explanatory. 
Drug abuse:  Using irresponsibly.  Like drinking and driving.  Smoking and operating heavy machinery. Doing excessive amounts. Etc.
Drug addiction:  When you become dependant on it.  I, personally, think it's an addiction when you develope an impulse to do it.  I think there are different levels of addiction.  I do not necessarily think addiction is bad. 
I do not view addiction as a bad thing until it places itself, priority wise, over things it shouldn't.  For example, not paying a bill so you can buy some alcohol. 
If you are addicted to pain killers, and they alleviate your pain, there is nothing wrong with that.  Addiction does not equal abuse.  If you are addicted to weed, and it helps alleviate pain and keeps your mood stable, there is nothing wrong with that. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with any drug unless it is having a negative impact on your life or someone else, like a child, who's quality of life is being reduced by it.