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fae    Topic opened May 09, 2006, 12:55:38 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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I'm mildly disturbed by the misuse of the word, so I'd figure I'd make a thread where we can all discuss what it means, both connotatively and denotatively.

Denotatively, Literary Irony is a conscious act on the part of the speaker or writer, by which they convey a semantic meaning that contradicts the more apparent one.  Dramatic Irony, as employed by Shakespeare, in which the audience sees impending doom while the character does not. Situational Irony, where the results or reactions are otherwise than originally expected.

So...  when you use the word irony, what are you attempting to convey?
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dadu Reply #1 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 12:59:53 PM
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Ah, ok, in the future I'll call people dumbasses for contradicting themselves.
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fae Reply #2 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:03:17 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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Your perception little boy.  While you're allowed to have it, I don't have to agree with you.
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Seven Reply #3 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:04:46 PM
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dadu Reply #4 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:07:32 PM
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People say things like "I detect irony" and the like in snarkiness.  It's basically said to someone to say, hey you know you've just contradicted yourself. 

Perhaps we should say, "I hope that's irony," instead?
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fae Reply #5 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:10:19 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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Neither would be a correct use of the denotative term, so construct it connotatively.
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Pixie Reply #6 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:13:12 PM

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Beldaran

I like the way people use it. It's more... interesting than the official use. ^_^

Maybe we should make up a new word to use instead, for that-thing-people-call-irony-but-isn't. Wink
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machiavelli33 Reply #7 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:22:24 PM
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007bistromath Reply #8 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:23:19 PM
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Left his attack boots in China

I've seen the term "cosmic irony" to refer to one of the "inappropriate" uses. I am ill-prepared to explain it, though.
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Zahnnie Reply #9 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:47:13 PM
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I *heart* pie (sexily).

Eh, language evolves to fit the people.  We don't have to like it but that's how it is.  Another couple decades, and our "wrong" use of the word irony will be "right".
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fae Reply #10 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 01:51:55 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins!

There's no such thing as the wrong use of a word.  I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.  Hard to type while feeding baby.

The purpose of this thread, at least what I'd intended it to be, was to construct a connotative (how everyone thinks it should be used and uses it) definition of the word.
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qeantk Reply #11 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:23:11 PM
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Could be a form of dramatic irony, due to the character not knowing something the audience does.  In these uses the reasons (forgetfulness, willful ignorance fo ones own hipocracy, etc) are unusual in that the character has known or could know if they chose, but I think it might be able to be stretched.
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Badger Reply #12 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:23:45 PM
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Why, precisely, is an agreed-upon definition of the word necessary?  If we come up with a 'Zetachannel connotative meaning for irony' then we just end up having to explain it to new people, like 'sex vs. PIV sex' or 'virginity', and it's just another hidden rule we use to separate the people who 'belong' in our community from those who don't (I'm all about the social notion of hidden rules these days, and the concept fascinates me).

I guess I'm not entirely sold on the need for a consensual meaning for a specific word, especially not one which (though it has standard literary applications and definitions) has a fairly fluid usage in common English.

I'm all for exploring the meaning of a word and how it's used.  But it seems that in the past we have, as a group, demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for 'redefining' a certain word through that exploration, and instead of explaining to new members the reasons why they might want to explore the meaning of a word, it turns into, "Here this word means X, not what you think it means, because we are better and more evolved," and when it becomes that, it stops being about understanding how and why we use language, but about using it to foster elitism and firm up the barriers between 'them' and 'us'.

Enlighten me?
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K Reply #13 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:28:50 PM

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I prefer Socratic irony, myself.
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fae Reply #14 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:31:19 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins!

<sighs>  I'm sorry.  There is no need for a consensus on what any one word means.   I thought it would be interesting if everyone defined what they meant by irony, so we could examine said word.

I had no intention of creating a solid, this is what this word means and you must now accept it.  Especially since I don't think that works very often, does it?

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007bistromath Reply #15 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:45:03 PM
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Left his attack boots in China

...Why are you dudes getting so pissy about this?

fae says: It bugs me that people use this word in a bunch of ways that don't match any convention I'm aware of. I wish to understand other peoples' diction, and to contribute in a consensus-building exercise to foster clearer communication with the people I often speak with. What does this word mean to us, individually?

Everyone else says: You are not Webster! Boo!

I totally don't get it. :/
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Zahnnie Reply #16 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:50:42 PM
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I *heart* pie (sexily).

Fae also communicates at right angles to the rest of us sometimes. :-)

Commonly called irony: saying something you know is obviously wrong because it's clever or amusing.  Or hypocrisy.
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Badger Reply #17 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:56:00 PM
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So long as we're not looking for an 'approved' definition for the word, I'm in on the discussion.  I like to investigate words and language, but I'm not down with the applied semantics of definition, personally.

M'self, I tend to use it when someone says something quite earnestly that is in complete opposition to either what they feel is true, or what they've demonstrated their own philosophy to be, because I'd rather look at a completely incongruous statement and see irony than hypocrisy.
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Gudy Reply #18 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 02:56:13 PM
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May be I'm once again displaying my literal-minded bias, but I use the word irony to express the perception that things are not what they are said to be or what they seem, or as Wikipedia currently puts it, "the notion of incongruity, or a gap between our understanding and what actually happens". Whether that is situational, dramatic, or verbal irony is secondary to me. I also generally use it to express incongruity as long as I find some humour in it.
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fae Reply #19 in Re: Irony — Posted May 09, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
Dancing Jeebas

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braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins!

Fae also communicates at right angles to the rest of us sometimes. :-)

Commonly called irony: saying something you know is obviously wrong because it's clever or amusing. Or hypocrisy.

Though I'd love to communicate more coherently, that's the nicest thing that anyone has ever said about me.  Smile
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