Author Topic: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.  (Read 3525 times)

Offline catfishncod

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It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« on: December 20, 2010, 01:59:25 AM »
Eight Republicans, plus Joe Lieberman, develop sudden case of conscience; vote to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell.

It just needs to be signed and it's gone. About fucking time.
I think many of us would agree with that. But then what about this? (Highlighting mine)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/us/politics/20start.html?hp
Quote from: NYTimes
With some prominent Republicans angry over passage of legislation ending the ban on gay men and lesbians serving openly in the military, the mood in the Senate turned increasingly divisive and Mr. Obama and Democratic lawmakers scrambled to hold together a coalition to approve the treaty.

Senator Harry M. Reid, the Democratic majority leader, moved to hold a vote on Tuesday to close off debate, saying, “You either want to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists or you don’t.” But the fate of the treaty, known as New Start, was complicated by a deadlock over government spending and the political subtext about whether the pact’s approval would rejuvenate a weakened president after his party’s midterm election defeat.... What makes the fierce showdown over this treaty so surprising is that compared with most of its predecessors, it is a relatively modest agreement that mainly resumes on-site inspections that lapsed last year and pares down each side’s deployed strategic warheads to 1,550 and deployed launchers to 700.

Short-term domestic politics are now more important than national security?? And this --

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/us/politics/20states.html?hpw
Quote from: NYTimes
The same people driving the lawsuits that seek to dismantle the Obama administration’s health care overhaul have set their sights on an even bigger target: a constitutional amendment that would allow a vote of the states to overturn any act of Congress. Under the proposed “repeal amendment,” any federal law or regulation could be repealed if the legislatures of two-thirds of the states voted to do so... The repeal amendment reflects a larger, growing debate about federal power at a time when the public’s approval of Congress is at a historic low.

Meanwhile, Jon Stewart is pointing out that the same people can't bring themselves to help the people who SAVED THOUSANDS OF LIVES ON 9/11. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-4-2010/i-give-up---9-11-responders-bill

As the title implies, I'm starting to agree with Padme Amidala.

This thread isn't about whether you like Congress, or any individual Congresscritters. Very few Americans have a warm fuzzy feeling for the national legislature, and nearly everyone can name a critter they loathe. What I want to think about is whether the system is even capable of doing its job. Can we get reasonable legislation passed? Has the passion for sideshow amendments and constant electioneering reached the point where even basic actions are no longer possible? And where is the fault? Do we need a Constitutional amendment? New political parties? A different voting system?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 02:07:57 AM by catfishncod »
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Offline Pixie

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 03:37:43 AM »
I just can't even handle this any more.
The Daily Show episode you posted made me cry when we watched it--a comedy show shouldn't do that. When he had the first responders on and they were talking about how they were all very sick/dying, I was just distraught because A COMEDY SHOW SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY ONE TO CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT.
It is the fault of politicians--BOTH sides, for being weak and corrupt and shitty people. It is the fault of the media for not caring about the things they should and caring a WHOLE lot about pushing their own agendas. It is the fault of the people who believed Fox News and the Tea Party and held these terrible people up as champions and told themselves that this was what they wanted--these people who are now spitting and fighting like toddlers in a sandpit, only it's affecting everyone living here and, really, a large part of the world. Sometimes it reminds me why I want to be a citizen. I want, more than voting rights, the ability to USE those rights to add another voice to those saying "this is what we want" and actually have some say in it. Sometimes it makes me wonder why I ever wanted it in the first place. I look at stuff like this, and sometimes I just feel so done with it. Maybe I should just drop it and be like those people on my Facebook who only care about TV shows about hoarders and people from New Jersey. At least they seem less angry.

Offline Pixie

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 03:39:47 AM »
I think, if this was Rome, it would be time to appoint one of those temporary dictators with complete personal power for six months. One of those would at least get some shit done.

Offline 007bistromath

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 06:16:37 AM »
I think, if this was Rome, it would be time to appoint one of those temporary dictators with complete personal power for six months. One of those would at least get some shit done.
Yeah, sure. Worked out great for them. :|

The repeal amendment is the best thing I've heard all year. There's a much simpler way to handle it, though. Repeal the 17th Amendment and there's a pretty good chance things will fix themselves soon enough. Our essential problem right now is that both houses of congress are populist corporate whores. The House is sort of supposed to be like that, that's why they get shorter terms, less power in general, and the budget. The Senate does a bunch of important shit that does not need to be in the hands of big business. Giving the Senate back to the state legislatures ensures that screwheaded overreaching legislation and unfunded mandates don't get passed in the first place.
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Offline Gudy

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 07:22:29 AM »
Can we get reasonable legislation passed? Nope.
Has the passion for sideshow amendments and constant electioneering reached the point where even basic actions are no longer possible? Certainly.
And where is the fault? Power without responsibility and accountability, mostly.
Do we need a Constitutional amendment? Possibly, but you won't get one that'll solve that shit, short of a revolution. And most likely not even then, judging from the way previous revolutions turned out the world over.
New political parties? Won't help.
A different voting system? Won't help, either, although something that'll turn the two-party system into a more multi-facetted affair might help with the most egregious excesses.

As for the repeal amendment, while I'm not quite as enthusiastic about it as bistro, I think that it might actually not be an entirely bad idea. There are almost certainly a couple of pitfalls that haven't occurred to me (besides the question of federal taxes), but I'm not ready to throw that idea out wholesale.

It certainly looks better than bistro's suggested repeal of the 17th amendment. Judging from how this shit works out in Germany, giving the senate directly to the state legislatures is just a recipe for more dickering, shadowy backroom deals etc. No, giving somebody the power to throw out laws is almost certainly better at this point than shifting around the power to create new ones.
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Offline etphonehome

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 07:27:28 AM »
One thing I think would really help is if Congress would remember that we are actually supposed to be a federal republic, and not try to solve all problems at the federal level. A prime example of this is health care. The way the government should (or should not) regulate and/or fund the health care industry is a very divisive one, and opinions on this issue do tend to vary on regional lines. Why not let each state decide how to handle this on their own, then? If you could get 75% approval for a single-payer system in California, and 75% approval for the status quo in Texas, why not let 75% of the people in both states get what they want?

Instead, we rammed a piece of legislation through on a national level that a slim majority can tolerate, and everyone else hates it. The passage of that bill also paralyzed the Congress by royally pissing off the Republicans, at least one of whose votes are needed to pass any bill. So now here we are at the end of the session when we really have to pass some stuff that does need to be resolved at the federal level (military policy, national defense treaties, federal tax policy, etc.), and there just isn't enough time to get it all done.
My 2¢.

Offline Vel

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 08:19:45 AM »
I always forget the extreme ways Congressmen talk about legislation. It is either going to be the "end of x as we know it"/"letting the terrorists win"/etc or they ignore the real world impact completely and nitpick the word choice. I actually cannot believe that they think half of what they say is remotely reasonable.
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Offline Pixie

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 08:45:36 AM »
Yeah, sure. Worked out great for them. :|

Well, this was INTENDED as cynical sarcasm, but it actually worked out pretty well for them for a good few hundred years. The process had started to change to something else rather naturally by the time Caesar resurrected the idea to grab power--really something that can happen under any system. Judging an idea based on how it all went wrong centuries later is... well, that's how people will probably look at us and our system. ;)

Offline 007bistromath

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 09:43:59 AM »
(besides the question of federal taxes)
Federal taxes were a terrible idea to begin with. Before we started doing that, the states collected taxes, and the feds collected from them. It's a much better system, because if the federal government starts being stupid, the states can say "fuck you, I'm keeping it." Meanwhile, if Utah is doing that because they want the Constitution to be replaced with the Book of Mormon, the rest of the union can say "fuck you, embargo," since regulating interstate trade is something the federal government does.
Quote
Judging from how this shit works out in Germany, giving the senate directly to the state legislatures is just a recipe for more dickering, shadowy backroom deals etc.
Uh... isn't Germany part of the EU anyway? So, doesn't France basically write their laws? I admit I don't have a great understanding of that, but I do have the general sense that nations in the EU are not meaningfully independent anymore.

As for giving the Senate to the states, I don't think it'd really be much different from the way it is now. There might be more dickering, but what people don't seem to realize is that the government is doing the best job it can when it sits around with its thumb up its ass. Nine times in ten, no matter what form of government you have, when it provides a solution, it will be the wrong one. The real trouble with Congress as it currently exists is not that it's doing nothing, but that its priorities are a fucked to death pile of burning shit. The things it gets done are corporate-sponsored money pyres.

At least with the Senate in the hands of state governments, there would be fifty different shady backroom deals in play, so they'd all push against each other on the pork bullshit and maybe pass something useful now and then. And really, because of the massive cycle of self-sucking that is our media machine, it is ultimately much easier for the common person to learn and/or do anything about the knucklefucks in their state government than anyone at the federal level, so the people would pretty much have more control over the Senate than the House at this point.
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Offline Gudy

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 11:29:44 AM »
Uh... isn't Germany part of the EU anyway? So, doesn't France basically write their laws?
Well, to keep it short (since it's wildly off-topic), keep in mind that Germany is the biggest player in the EU and so it's more like Germany writes everyone's laws these days. But that's secondary to the real problem.

Which is that if there is a law proposal that is so revoltingly stupid that they'd never get it passed on a national level and survive the aftermath, they kick it up to the EU level, which is unaccountable except to the EU member governments (which are either running the show anyway, like France and Germany, or are financially dependent on EU subsidies. Which effectively means that there is no accountability at all). And then Shitty Law gets passed as a EU directive that is mandatory to incorporate into national law in each member state, with the politicians now looking like they valiantly fought, and lost, the battle against Shitty Law while secretly rubbing their hands because they got what they wanted without looking like they're responsible.
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 12:57:57 PM »
Ah. Yeah, I'm well aware that's what the EU does. It's one of the main things I hate about some of the treaties our own government is kicking around these days.

Thing is, accountability at the state level is already built in to the system and culture. It's how things worked for us before the 17th Amendment, and there were never any unfunded mandates or other grossly ridiculous legislative horseshit in those days. The 17th was pushed through by a bunch of populist dickholes fooling people into thinking that they somehow have more power by mixing their own voice with thousands of others who also don't have a good sense of what's best for their state.
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Offline phobos

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 01:25:54 PM »
Well, to keep it short (since it's wildly off-topic), keep in mind that Germany is the biggest player in the EU and so it's more like Germany writes everyone's laws these days.

Well, 'biggest player' is one way of putting it. The other way would be 'they're the only ones left who've actually got any money'.
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Offline TIP

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 06:47:53 PM »
Meanwhile, if Utah is doing that because they want the Constitution to be replaced with the Book of Mormon, the rest of the union can say "fuck you, embargo,"
And then no one gets medicare or unemployment insurance and the South secedes.

Also,
Quote
...accountability... is built into our culture
Quote
America
hahahahahahahaha oh WOW.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 06:50:06 PM by TIP »
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 04:27:16 AM »
And then no one gets medicare or unemployment insurance
Alternately, those things are handled by the states, which is probably a better idea.

re: accountability. For the state level of government, yes it is. Except in the very populous ones, state government is small enough than an individual who pays attention has a decent shot at getting their head around the whole thing so that their opinion is legitimate. Furthermore, since we do not and will not have fifty different multi-billion dollar lie generation industries to muddy the waters, people are able to act on generally reliable information. In most states, it remains true to this day, rather than a romantic myth as it is at the federal level, that the people governing you could be your neighbors rather than business magnates or the yes-men they hand-picked.

If you give people a reason to care about state government again, they will, and that will be a wonderful thing.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 04:30:07 AM by 007bistromath »
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Offline TIP

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 12:41:04 PM »
Alternately, those things are handled by the states, which is probably a better idea.
OK, then no one in half the states get medicare or unemployment insurance.

Or, you know. The civil rights act.

And, hey! How about when a corporation buys the repeal of environmental or other regulations in a state, and up and moves to that state? Can't wait to have Big Business playing the states off of each other. Good times.

P.S. the idea that people in a state of hundreds of millions are "your neighbors", besides the handful that are actually your neighbors, is ludicrous.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 01:15:32 PM »
You know, it's not like we haven't gone through times like this in our country's history before.  You wanna talk about nasty campaigns where both sides hated eachother to bits?  Try the beginning of the Jacksonian era, 1820-'28.  Adams essentially gets elected president due to backroom deals after a long protracted campaign that was widely regarded among historians as one of the dirtiest in history.

And during that era, we have the Nullification Crisis, where South Carolina nearly seceded over tariffs and leading to one of the early states rights arguments (echoes of Texas' supposed secession over health care anyone?).

And you want to talk about a president in the pocket of a powerful lobby that ended up supporting legislation that was terribly unpopular because it worked to undo a lot of the compromises in the past?  Franklin Pierce.  He supported the Kansas-Nebraska act and was generally sympathetic to the slavery cause.

Pierce also was a bit of a warmonger, allowing the Onstend Manifesto to float through his diplomatic corps, the one that allowed for the annexation of Cuba (as a slave state) and to go to war with Spain if they didn't cough it up.

Then there's another part of history, someone who lost the popular vote, but just barely hung on to the electoral college after a deal with the Supreme Court- that would be Rutherford B. Hayes.  And his deal was largely in order to get Reconstruction killed way earlier than it should have been, which was argued that it was as bad as it was only because Johnson had a particular hate-on towards the South (historians theorize that Reconstruction would have been a lot lighter under Lincoln).

The only reason that FDR's New Deal stuff went through as much as it did was because of a combination of Democratic control of both houses and a minor schism in the Republican party between (get this) outright blocking it due to the harm it would do to big business or barely tolerating it in order to make it more efficient.  And even still half of it got thrown out by a conservative Supreme Court or shut down as quickly as some legislators could get it.  It was also widely criticized by conservatives as "Tax and tax, spend and spend, elect and elect" (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Tax-spend.JPG)  Sound familiar?

My point?  Yes, it sucks right now.  We've seem to lost the old notion of the "loyal opposition", the party on the other side of the aisle that pokes holes in legislation in order to actually debate it and test it rather than just to block it for their own gain.  But to be honest?  That's the way American politics has worked since at least the 1820s.  We've gone through ups and downs, we've had presidents and legislatures press forth stuff based on their own opinion and loyalties rather than "the good of the country".  That's what happens when ambitious people become the leader of a country.  

We've been trying to get health care reform passed since Truman.  It took 100 years to get a decent Civil Rights deal passed and it still was full of holes (think of the arguments over affirmative action to this day, FIFTY YEARS LATER).  Maybe JFK really was a weak president with good speechwork (sound familiar?) that only was remembered fondly because he was assassinated mid-term.  

History is cyclical.  It always has been.  History is also full of arguments and people hating eachother.  Hell, we had a ten year argument that had to be settled with some very big compromises that nobody liked at the time just to get the Constitution signed.
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Offline TIP

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 01:20:18 PM »
The thing is, at none of those times--even just before the Civil War--was the filibuster used as casually and constantly as it is now. At least both parties had a nominal interest in governing before; this time the Republicans seem to have decided "fuck America, fuck everything, we want to fuck over the President no matter who pays for it."

oh my bad they also want to give rich people tax cuts
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How dare you come to Carterhaugh, without the leave of me?"
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Offline Coyote

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 02:32:01 PM »
Uhmmm... Actually remember that there's been an argument to repeal the Federal Tax even as is was becoming an Amendment.  And tariff arguments were always because "it hurt business interests".  There was a severe hulabaloo over TR's anti-trust stuff because it would hurt business owners.

And you're right, the filibuster wasn't used as casually.  We just had people breaking out in fistfights beating one another nearly to death with a cane over the aftereffects of the Kansas-Nebraska Act.  (Brooks v. Sumner- 1856)

Though English Parliament is infamous of filibustering EVERYTHING to death particuarly in the late 1800s.  In the US HoR, there wasn't a need to filibuster in the early part of its history because there was unlimited debate till the 1840s (and you can guess which topic is probably what killed THAT rule).  And the Senate didn't even enact cloture rules till 1917.

The Senate also didn't really need to have to worry about filibusters because a) it gradually got bigger so there were always brand spanking new people to test their waters for their consituencies so they often just stayed out of the process and b) there was always the threat hanging over the minority party's heads that the majority could just "You know what? Screw filibusters."  Hell, that tactic STILL gets used to this day. (The GOP nearly snipped the filibuster process out of the whole shebang when they were still in power.  Boy wouldn't that have been ironic?)

The rules on cloture and against unlimited debate imply that they were a lot more common than we think at the time, or at least were beginning to be a problem enough to create regulation.  We see it now more often because there's two channels literally devoted to watching congress (both C-SPANs) and someone can just barf the congressional record up on the net the moment it gets published.

It's kinda like disease; we seem to be more aware of them today because news trumpets it 24/7, but in fact we're probably even healthier than after Salk introduced the polio vaccine.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 02:33:32 PM by Coyote »
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Offline TIP

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 04:41:15 PM »
Quote
And you're right, the filibuster wasn't used as casually.  We just had people breaking out in fistfights beating one another nearly to death with a cane over the aftereffects of the Kansas-Nebraska Act.  (Brooks v. Sumner- 1856)
One senator attacked another with a cane. Clearly, that has everything to do with the filibuster and Getting Shit Done.

Quote
The rules on cloture and against unlimited debate imply that they were a lot more common than we think at the time, or at least were beginning to be a problem enough to create regulation.  We see it now more often because there's two channels literally devoted to watching congress (both C-SPANs) and someone can just barf the congressional record up on the net the moment it gets published.

It's kinda like disease; we seem to be more aware of them today because news trumpets it 24/7, but in fact we're probably even healthier than after Salk introduced the polio vaccine.
No, really, the filibuster has never, ever been used anywhere near as often as recently. We have statistics on it from post-WWII at least.


And it's gotten worse since 2008. 2006-2008 was just a Democrat senate--2008 onwards has been Obama.

For fuck's sake, everything from the goddamn START treaty (which every single living Republican secretary of state has been urging them to vote for) to health care for 9/11 first responders needs 60 votes instead of 50 because otherwise they can't invoke cloture. It's insane. When a political party is willing to fuck everything up, they can stop anything from happening as long as they have at least 40 senators.

It's at the point where they can get tax cuts for the richest people in the country and abolishment of the estate tax, added to the deficit of course, so people can keep getting unemployment benefits (which, you know, happens to be vital for the economy). Christ.
"How dare you pull my rose, Madam! How dare you break my tree!
How dare you come to Carterhaugh, without the leave of me?"
"Well may I pull the rose," she said, "Well may I break the tree,
For Carterhaugh is my father's; I'll ask no leave of thee!"

Offline S*S

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Re: It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions.
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 04:59:30 PM »
And we whine about our Coalition government that's mostly just an excuse for the Lib Dems to eat humble pie and remain a club of ineffectual nice people.

I wish America had a proper three-party system. Pledging cooperation beyond the traditional party boundaries is one thing, but there's no real incentive for anybody to actually do it. I'm not saying we should fuck things up further by going all Italian on it and making it so you have to court some bunch of assholes with 11 seats total just to get the simplest shit passed, but... I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. Forming into a giant mass that always Toes the Party Line shouldn't be the winning tactic, and shouldn't be the only way to counter that tactic from your opponents.
"You know, Johnny, watching your love life is like watching aliens fuck. You're not sure what exactly is going on, but it's both enchanting and uncomfortable." -Kyle J Cardoza
What are good/neutral things about me?/Bad things about me?