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Pixie Reply #80 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 02:18:56 PM

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I'm talking in terms of introducing something like this slowly to help people who might contest it get used to it. If you start it off in classes with children with same sex parents with the intent of reducing that child's feeling of being different, then if that goes down reasonably well with children and parents it could be extended later.
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sinic Reply #81 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 02:29:46 PM
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Why is it more important in class than in little league practice?  Same issues arise.

Same issue arises, but you have a different person in charge.  In little league practice wouldn't the responsibility for looking after children's well being fall to that of the coach?

The other issue that I haven't seen brought up is what if the teacher feels that homosexuality is a sin?  How can that be dealt with?  I know the ideal of the benevolent teacher guided only by the morals of tolerance is a great idea, but I know a lot of teachers might not buy into that.

I can see having a cirriculum-wide acceptance program possibly succeeding in MA, but what about in AL or GA?  What about TX, VA or UT?  What does the argument change to in those areas?
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S*S Reply #82 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 02:40:38 PM
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Oh, no, we can't read kids books with interracial couples! They might want to know how a white daddy and a black mommy could have babies! Then we'd have to explain sexuality AND miscegenation to them!

This is hyperbole. You know gwoo doesn't feel remotely this way, and invoking racism adds nothing to the discussion.

I know accusing someone of being a homophobe doesn't carry the same rhectorical punch as insinuating that they are a racist, but that's still no reason you can't disagree without dragging the whole discussion down onto a lower level of maturity.

I can see everyones point that a book featuring two princes shouldn't be unusual, but the fact remains that it is. Particularly in the format it's being presented. The kids are deliberately sat down and made to listen to the story, and any facade of "casualness" is a lie. It's a mandated casualness. There's always seemed to be something fundamentally wrong with these bullshit "equality lessons" you get shafted with in schools. Gwoo's right that young children don't think about this crap, I certainly didn't. On the topic of racism, I couldn't give a shit about race or colour until we covered it in class in an obnoxious and contrived manner that only suceeded in highlighting every black or asian kid in the class and establishing that we shouldn't treat them differently.

I also think it's ineffective. I do not think you can FORCE social change upon luddites. If a community is going to be comprised of homophobes, there is very little you can do about that, their parents will just tell the children that the story they heard in class today is all part of the homosexual agenda, and then explain about how liberals are evil or whatever. The best you'll do is enforce more bullshit political correctness rather then actual acceptance.

Social change will happen, make no mistake. Gay people will get the right to marry eventually, and when they do, it won't be because a bunch of middle aged, liberal, cat-owning schoolteachers "educated" children about how Homophobia Is For Fags, or something.

Not to say I think it's a bad thing that this is being taught, I just think that ultimately it's a waste of time and fairly pointless. All this will do is galvanize the right against the "homosexual agenda" and confuse children.
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Crystal Reply #83 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 03:30:23 PM
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6) In the rare (as in 5%) chance a kid with two moms or dads is in the lower grades, then the smart parents will give the teacher a heads up and it can be woven into the class discussions.  Special needs kids require this kind of accommodation as do those from unique family situations.

Ok, so here's the thing.  I was that "5%" child.  And it sucked.  People freaked out.  People threw rocks at our house, unscrewed mom's distributor cap on her Land Cruiser, called Child Protective Services, made fun of me, broke my toys, even hit me.  All because they weren't sure how to deal with my situation.  This was in 2nd grade.  It just got worse from there until my mother decided to move to Tucson when I was in 5th grade to preseve both of our sanity and my chances of not ending up a barefoot, pregnant, uneducated, repressed trailer wife.  Granted we did live in a small town in a very conservative state.

Here's the thing; there is now a national organization of children of lesbians and gays.  Why?  Because we all share that bond.  That experience of  being a total freak in school.  The ridicule, the harrassment, the generalized fear of telling anyone about our lives.  I felt like an alien, even in a progressive, LGBT friendly city like Tucson.  Once we moved here, I made 4, count them 4 friends with similar parents.  My mother was very active in the community, worked with the Lesbian and Gay theater company here locally, helped at the Gay Pride picnic, even volunteered on the domestic abuse crisis line at the LGBT community center.  And yet, I knew 4 other children in similar situations.  Four.  Out of a community more than 50,000 strong.

It wasn't until high school that I began to finally find friends my own age.  Most of my peers tended to freak, run, point, or throw rocks (both figuratively and literally) before that.  I've been told that my mothers are going to hell.  That I'm going to hell simply because they raised me.  That I'm an abomination unto God.  That I'm a freak.  I've been asked, from age 7 on if my mom or her significant other "touched me inappropriately."  I had to sit in a CPS office and be interviewed by a guy I didn't know, because my neighbors figured that if I was living with *gasp* lesbians, then I was going to be sexually abused.  At least that guy, after interviewing myself and my mother had the sense to say "Your neighbors are going to continue to try and punish you for this.  I suggest you move."

My mother came out to me when she found her first girlfriend.  I hesitate to phrase it that way, because "coming out" implies all these big things that seriously never happened.  Mostly what happened is my mother said "We're moving in with Liss, because she and mommy fell in love," and I said "Cool, can I go back outside and play?"  I was 6, and it was the summer before 2nd grade.  I do think that in places where there will be a higher instance of same-sex parents, it's very important that the children know it's perfectly normal.  Otherwise, children will have to go through what I had to go through.  Children should not be made to suffer for who or what their parents are.  Children suffer enough already simply by being near other children.  "Ewww, what's that on your face?"  "They're freckles.  My whole family has them."  "HAHA!  MUTANT!  Don't play with the mutant, guys, he's a freak." 

If the community I was in had treated homosexuality as just something that happened, I doubt very much I would have felt so alone and excluded.  I doubt I would - to this day - hesitate at all to tell people about my mother and her wife.  But they treated us like vermin, and sinners, and jerks, so I still struggle to tell people who my mother is and what she's like, even though I have the best mom I could ever have hoped for.  I wouldn't wish that on ANY child.  If reading a book like this one helps children get over that initial "eww, that's different, smite it with rocks!" impulse, then I'm all for it.  Unfortunately, in my experience, knowing that this sort of thing exists isn't enough to make people accept it, and may even push them the other way.  New experiences tend to overwhelm the human animal, and when overwhelmed the human animal either runs away, or fights back hard.  I don't think we want that kind of backlash from this.

**edited because no matter how many times they hit me, it's still only one of the things they did.**
Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 03:33:56 PM by Crystal Logged

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Jade_Dragon Reply #84 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 03:40:07 PM
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I Gwoo's right that young children don't think about this crap, I certainly didn't. On the topic of racism, I couldn't give a shit about race or colour until we covered it in class in an obnoxious and contrived manner that only suceeded in highlighting every black or asian kid in the class and establishing that we shouldn't treat them differently.

I call B.S. on this one.  Young children certainly do think about this crap, or well at least some of them do.  I was first called a nigger in the second grade, by one of my classmates, I remember it quite distinctly.

The children who are different do think about this crap.  They are forced to every day because whether they want to think about it or not, they are different, and they can see that in every movie, story, doll, etc. that they encounter.  Introducing some movies, stories, etc. with some different characters is not going to seem like fake bullshit to some little kids, they lack the cynacism that you and I have.

What it will do is introduce the concept of that difference and move towards promoting tolerance of that difference.

Teachers that think being gay is a sin should still have no problem promoting tolerance of gay people.  Tolerance does not mean that you like or agree with something, it means that you tolerate it.  Any teacher that refuses to promote tolerance of one of their students (and that goes for children of KKK members as well) ought to be fired, IMO.

Teaching is an incredibly difficult job for many reasons, not just anyone can do it.
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Jade_Dragon Reply #85 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 03:49:25 PM
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I'd also like to make the point that there is a lot of "kids will" and "kids think" and kids this, kids that going on.

Does anyone actually have any evidence where this has gone incredibly wrong?  Cuz I have seen it go right: It's Elementary: Talking about Gay Issues in Schools and haven't heard anything from the "other side" besides fear and speculation.
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sinic Reply #86 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 04:00:50 PM
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Just out of curiosity, how do they deal with people who are against this kind of teaching in that documentary?  How do they deal with people who are very vocally against it?  Does it maintain objectivity or does it focus on just blowing sunshine?
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Bunner Reply #87 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 04:02:58 PM
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Maybe we should just sterilize everyone with gamma rays and start growing fully matured adults in vats.
That'll solve this whole "children" problem real easy.

Hey, I'm just doing what they told me in school!
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LrsDude Reply #88 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 04:27:36 PM

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I think that parents should no longer have the right to raise children. Whenever someone raises a child poorly, 90%+ of the time it is a parent. Parenting rights should be given over to bears. Or robots. But not both.
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007bistromath Reply #89 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 04:43:04 PM
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What kind of a fucked up nation do we live in where a bear and a robot cannot live together and raise a child without some bigoted asshole hassling them? And what about the robot bears? Do they just not exist?
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TIP Reply #90 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 04:53:44 PM

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Badger Reply #91 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 06:00:25 PM
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Quote
And this is a reason to cut the material? Wow. Word of advice, don't go and teach biology or geology in Alabama...

Ok, how many times am I going to have to endure cheap shots like this without getting nasty in return.

*snip*

It's not at all a cheap shot.  Teaching evolution in some communities provokes the same reaction that this fairly benign book produced in yours.  It's simply a reference to what happens when people's personal prejudices color what they see and how they respond to things.

You said it yourself.  It's the parents that are the problem, not the kids or the book itself.  So why let those people who cannot disassociate close same-sex relationships from rampant ass-sexxxings dictate the process of how kids will be taught, and why let those people's reactions dictate your own response to the book?  If your kid had just read the book, and you had the chance to see that it was no more than two princes ruling a kingdom together, and you weren't basing your response on the fact that it was likely to cause a fuss, how would you feel simply about a book in which a nonsexual prince chose a nonsexual prince instead of a nonsexual princess?  You said yourself that your daughter didn't come home full of curiosity about homosexuality, that the problem was in the outcry and community response.

That's worth thinking about, asking if you're making a decision based on the hysterical reactions of others or on the real effects something actually had on your child.
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Pixie Reply #92 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 06:08:07 PM

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I can see everyones point that a book featuring two princes shouldn't be unusual, but the fact remains that it is. Particularly in the format it's being presented. The kids are deliberately sat down and made to listen to the story, and any facade of "casualness" is a lie.

Not from where the kids are sat- I'm sure they get deliberately sat down and read a story every day, or most days. ^_^
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Jade_Dragon Reply #93 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 06:29:08 PM
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Just out of curiosity, how do they deal with people who are against this kind of teaching in that documentary? How do they deal with people who are very vocally against it? Does it maintain objectivity or does it focus on just blowing sunshine?

Well the documentary focuses on the children and their reactions.  It shows some kids being like "my parents don't like gay people" or "that's wierd" so it doesn't just blow sunshine as you put it.  IIRC, it shows some interviews with parents who are for and against it and it also talks with some teachers who are for and against it. 
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sinic Reply #94 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 07:13:55 PM
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That's good to know, Jade.  If you have a link to the video or maybe if we (meaning me and Pix) can get it through Netflix we'll check it out.  I'm curious what it has to say.
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Antero Reply #95 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 08:47:32 PM
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Quote from: Gwoo
I don't need others to decide for me when my daughter will be exposed to alternative sexual lifestyles.
The reason you keep repeating yourself is because you keep missing the point entirely: the "sexual" aspect does not exist in the book, in the minds of the children, in the presentation, or even in the concept of homosexual relationships.

It's certainly not something that people will accept, and it's definitely not a good move on the part of supporters of gay rights at this time, but that does not change the fact that objections to it are based in prejudice.

I Gwoo's right that young children don't think about this crap, I certainly didn't. On the topic of racism, I couldn't give a shit about race or colour until we covered it in class in an obnoxious and contrived manner that only suceeded in highlighting every black or asian kid in the class and establishing that we shouldn't treat them differently.

I call B.S. on this one.  Young children certainly do think about this crap, or well at least some of them do.  I was first called a nigger in the second grade, by one of my classmates, I remember it quite distinctly.
And a Hispanic friend of mine was taunted all through grade school for her race (she was in Texas).  If you're in a society where racism is common, kids will come out racist if you don't say anything.
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Gwoo Reply #96 in Re: Parent's right to raise their children how? — Posted May 17, 2006, 10:07:57 PM
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It's the parents that are the problem, not the kids or the book itself.  So why let those people who cannot disassociate close same-sex relationships from rampant ass-sexxxings dictate the process of how kids will be taught, and why let those people's reactions dictate your own response to the book?

Because I prefer to put my child ahead of a cause.  Because if the subject material is going to raise a ruckus and bring into the classroom a whole host of issues that are not necessarily age appropriate, then I am not going to sit idly by and take the risk for the benefit of "the cause" at the expense of my child.

If the subject does not have to be raised because there's a kid or several kids there with gay parents who may endure what Crystal did, then it simply isn't necessary to take the risk.  Throw something like that into the mix otherwise and the same knucklehead comments can be interjected simply because a kid comes from a family that does not see something wrong with it from kids who did.  The same bullshit gets stirred up that would not otherwise been stirred up had it not been brought up until such time as it was age appropriate.

Quote
The reason you keep repeating yourself is because you keep missing the point entirely: the "sexual" aspect does not exist in the book, in the minds of the children, in the presentation, or even in the concept of homosexual relationships.

No.  You keep missing my point because it does not fit with what you want me to be saying as it is less convenient to object.  I have said that all it takes is one kid or one parent of a kid to make a stink and those aspects not mentioned get thrown into the conversation and then the melee ensues.

Interjecting it into the system begs the questions.  If the questions arise then it spins off.  Those advancing the agenda do not really care if they do or not.  For them it's a risk they want to take or in fact would be happy to see occur.  I am not that enamored of the cause to throw my child's innocence thrown under the bus for its furtherance.
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