Author Topic: Slutwalk & Feminism (Read 4932 times)

S*S · « **on:** June 16, 2011, 09:17:05 AM »

Stupid Work Colleague: *laughing* Oh, Jonathan, this news article about that 'Slutwalk' thing you went to... there's a photo with a banner that says "Cleavage is not Consent"! *laughing fit to burst*

Me: Well, you know. It's a simple message, but an important one. It's saying how it's ridiculous to blame the victims, just because of what they were wearing, or whatever retarded stuff people say.

SWC: Well yeah, but if you dress like that, you're kind of asking for it.

Me:

What?! No you're not. (Trying to articulate stream of thoughts) People always try to shift the blame on the victims, it's this nasty little undercurrent that's everywhere, and you get told all these small things and they add up, and it means women won't come forward about... you know, being assualted... it's totally out of control, and...

SWC: (reading from the article) ...after a Toronto police officer told a group of students "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised".

Me: (seizing on the point of it being out of control) Right? And that guy's a *policeman*, who's saying that.

SWC: So he knows what he's talking about, then.

Me: (somewhat stunned) No... no, it... he's an idiot. The idea that women can just... not... anyway. The main point is, it doesn't matter what you're wearing, it's wrong to blame the victim rather then the people who attack them.

SWC: Well... I think that's a bit of a gray area.
---

Conversation ended at about there. What I thought, but didn't say, is: "Look, you stupid bitch, you're currently wearing cutoff denim short-shorts, a blouse that is mostly see through, and in the past you've worn a series of low-cut tops. From your facebook photos, every weekend you go out and get leglessly drunk wearing tight little bodice-things. There are many, many men who would consider that to be slutty clothing that is just 'asking for it', so the idea that there's some preset level of attire where you don't deserve to be raped is ridiculous, and why the hell am I having to mansplain Women's Lib to a fucking chick?!"

And I only recently got done having a conversation with some patronising dipshit with sand in her vagina that linked me a male privilege checklist and attempted to explain to me why I'M part of the fucking problem.

Edit: And of the four women sitting at my bank of desks, three of them acted like her statements weren't anything special and seemed to subvocalise agreement, and the other tittered and said "Ooh, I'm not getting involved in this". But yes, feminism, I am absolutely fucking gutted about the fact that "I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex (mailman, chairman, freshman, etc)", and I apologise for my part in that shambolic affair.

Majestrix · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:22:22 AM »

Johnny, that was, in all seriousness, quite well done.

And your bolded quote is something I'm probably going to have to steal.

Were I in England, you'd be getting quite drunk tonight on my dime.

Kyle J Cardoza · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:26:03 AM »

My problem with things like that checklist isn't that the things on it aren't true; some or all of them probably are. My problem is that I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it is that people who tell/show me things like that want from me.

TIP · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:32:12 AM »

Quote from: S*S on June 16, 2011, 09:17:05 AM

why the hell am I having to mansplain Woman's Lib to a fucking chick?!"

Because this whole thing isn't "men vs. women", and women perpetuate shitty cultural ideas that hurt them on a regular basis, often quite viciously. So do men.
(Incidentally, you weren't mansplaining there, IMO.)

Quote

And I only recently got done having a conversation with some patronising dipshit with sand in her vagina that linked me a male privilege checklist and attempted to explain to me why I'M part of the fucking problem.

Sometimes, you are, dude. (And sometimes, I am. Most of us tend to be part of the problem every now and then. That's how cultural problems work, which is why they're so nasty.)
But really, you tend to adopt a veneer of sexism, but in reality, you're doing a hell of a lot better than average. This whole "speaking out when people spout this shit" thing you did is pretty rad and an important thing to do, for example!

tl;dr good job

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But yes, feminism, I am absolutely fucking gutted about the fact that "I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex (mailman, chairman, freshman, etc)", and I apologise for my part in that shambolic affair.

It's not something to be gutted about or a problem in and of itself. It's a reflection of an overall attitude that is problematic, i.e. men are the "norm"/baseline.
If it helps, I'm pretty sure you're an atheist, so think of it as the equivalent of having phrases about God shoved everywhere. It's not really a big deal on its own but it can kind of chafe, and her in Amurrica you deal with people who think anyone who thinks that maybe we shouldn't have "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance is some kind of hypersensitive reactionary religion-hater.

Quote from: Kyle J Cardoza

My problem is that I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it is that people who tell/show me things like that want from me.

Depends on the context. Generally, awareness of privilege? The context I've usually seen it in is in response to "nuh uh everything is totally equal and fair there's no such thing as institutionalized discrimination or unconscious sexism or privilege."

Kyle J Cardoza · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:38:10 AM »

"Awareness of privilege to what end?" is more what I mean. What is it they want me to do? I've spent the bulk of my adult life doing everything I can to improve the lives of the women around me, and still I get what I, reluctantly, can only interpret as a guilt trip.

TIP · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »

Quote from: Kyle J Cardoza on June 16, 2011, 09:38:10 AM

"Awareness of privilege to what end?" is more what I mean. What is it they want me to do? I've spent the bulk of my adult life doing everything I can to improve the lives of the women around me, and still I get what I, reluctantly, can only interpret as a guilt trip.

I have no idea why any given person shows it to you, or, if strangers confront you with it unprompted, why they do so.

Edit: or do you mean why awareness is superior to ignorance in the first place?

Majestrix · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:45:29 AM »

Well OBVIOUSLY Kyle you simply haven't been giving enough pedicures. That's your damn problem right there. Get cracking.

S*S · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2011, 09:55:33 AM »

Quote from: Kyle J Cardoza on June 16, 2011, 09:26:03 AM

My problem with things like that checklist isn't that the things on it aren't true; some or all of them probably are. My problem is that I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it is that people who tell/show me things like that want from me.

Right? Slutwalk was awesome, and one of the reasons it was awesome is because I was allowed/encouraged to show up. There were a surprising number of dudes there, for what is primarily considered a woman's issue. I feel like a lot of guys respond positively whenever they are offered a chance to respond positively. It feels good to defect to Team Awesome.

The checklist also simplifies complex issues to the point where it's useless to talk about them, like any conversation about "patriarchy" does.

I mean, this one: 31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Domestic violence is a whole 'nother mess compared to typical assault for several reasons, absolutely none of which are "teh police don't liek women, lol! I wonder when Pop Idol is bk on??!"

There are often children involved. It's assumed the victim will invite the perpetrator back into their home, and that if any complaint was made to the police who showed up, it will be dropped. Restraining Orders arn't as effective in helping the victim protect themselves. It requires different counselling: the usual victim support that police offer isn't gonna cut it, you need special groups- usually ones aimed at women that teach ways to be assertive and regain control of your life- and it's often more important to note whether the victim is actually attending them or whether they're continuing to endanger their children by choosing the relationship over the safety of their family.

So we can talk about that, we can talk about ways that society can do that support better, we can grab ahold of the people that actually work with these victims and ask them what THEY think, what does the government need to fund more, what works, what doesn't work?

Or we can blame the problem on "Patriarchy" and write a useless list on our shitty blog, because we're an unemployed mother of two with too much time on her hands, and subsequently wield it as a weapon against random men to utterly no effect whatsoever, because generally speaking, feminists always miss the point and are as useless as sand.

Tamsin · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:07:23 AM »

Quote from: Kyle J Cardoza on June 16, 2011, 09:38:10 AM

"Awareness of privilege to what end?" is more what I mean. What is it they want me to do? I've spent the bulk of my adult life doing everything I can to improve the lives of the women around me, and still I get what I, reluctantly, can only interpret as a guilt trip.

1) They hope that you will agree with them, and, given this tool, use it to forward their agenda for equality. What they want is for you to tell them you will do this, confirming they have a found a compatriot in you.

2) They hope that you will express agreement with the sentiment behind it, and offer them sympathy. This is most effective if you also offer personal anecdotes about times you have worked against sexism or seen sexism take place and recognized it. What they want is for you to confirm that they are in the right, that what they are doing is worthwhile, that there are men who are not their enemies in this, thereby encouraging and supporting them.

3) They hope that you will discuss the issues raised by the checklist in a rational manner, giving them an opportunity to discuss this without it degenerating into them being attacked. What they want is a chance to educate a male someone about what they have suffered as female someones.

4) If they have witnessed you doing something sexist or using privilege, they are trying to tell you about this in a tactful, indirect way. They hope that you will recognize your actions by reading about them in the checklist, acknowledge to them that you have done so, and then further state that you will amend your behavior or thoughts.

5) They are actually using the list as a way of saying, look what has been done to me, it has hurt me, tell me I am right to feel hurt and that it IS a hurtful thing, that you see this too. What they want is for their hurt not to be invisible. They want someone to say that what has been done to them is wrong. They are hoping not to hear again that they are wrong for thinking that it hurts, that what has been done to them is okay, and that they should be quiet and submit to more of it.

So... They want help, sympathy, discussion, change, and compassion. All you have to do is not feel attacked, not feel guilty, respond intelligently and with respect, and in general treat them and their checklist with dignity. Let them be heard, and listen, and talk, and show them you want to help. It's possible you might be the first man to do so, instead of attacking them or just agreeing but remaining silent.

Kyle J Cardoza · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:17:52 AM »

Tamsin, that's the most rational thing anyone's ever said to me on the topic. Thank you. It's probably also the most helpful, but time will have to tell on that aspect.

TIP · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:26:22 AM »

Quote from: S*S on June 16, 2011, 09:55:33 AM

Right? Slutwalk was awesome, and one of the reasons it was awesome is because I was allowed/encouraged to show up. There were a surprising number of dudes there, for what is primarily considered a woman's issue. I feel like a lot of guys respond positively whenever they are offered a chance to respond positively. It feels good to defect to Team Awesome.

There are lot of guys who do, which is why there are plenty of things where they are encouraged to contribute.
I mean, it's not like men aren't allowed/encouraged to show up to, say, rallies against attacks on access to abortion (and, more recently, on Planned fucking Parenthood, of all things) here, or plenty of other feminist/women's issues.

There is also the need for safe spaces, which is why those exist.

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The checklist also simplifies complex issues to the point where it's useless to talk about them, like any conversation about "patriarchy" does.

If the checklist was an in-depth examination of each issue, nobody would read it. It developed as a response to "well just how are things better for me as a guy? They're not because women can get laid easy and you're just making sexism up because it doesn't exist". You don't even have to agree with any particular item--the point is that, yes, there are a whole bunch of benefits, both invisible and concrete, as distinct as legal attacks on women and as everyday as being able to leave the house without having people come up to you and be skeevy at you (which was recently brought up in a thread and which you expressed surprise about), to being male (or straight, or white, or etc), and they add up

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I mean, this one: 31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Domestic violence is a whole 'nother mess compared to typical assault for several reasons, absolutely none of which are "teh police don't liek women, lol! I wonder when Pop Idol is bk on??!"

That's... not what that point is about. The point is, roughly, "woman gets stabbed by boyfriend" - domestic violence issue, which gets treated separately and specially, and groups that focus on reducing domestic violence are [insert generic negative stereotype here] feminists, special interests focused on helping women because feminists hate men, etc etc etc. By contrast, "man gets stabbed on the street" - that's crime, and groups that deal with reducing, say, violent crime aren't seen as special interests, biased, etc--hell, being "tough on crime" is an always-cheap popularity booster for a politician here.

I'm sure we could argue about this forever, but it's really beside the point. Like I said, you don't need to agree, you just need to take the broader point and maybe understand where it's coming from.

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So we can talk about that, we can talk about ways that society can do that support better, we can grab ahold of the people that actually work with these victims and ask them what THEY think, what does the government need to fund more, what works, what doesn't work?

We do.

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Or we can blame the problem on "Patriarchy" and write a useless list on our shitty blog, because we're an unemployed mother of two with too much time on her hands, and subsequently wield it as a weapon against random men to utterly no effect whatsoever, because generally speaking, feminists always miss the point and are as useless as sand.

Jesus christ, dude, I am pretty sure that the entire reason you are at the Slutwalk to do more than ogle, rather than laughing and agreeing with your coworkers, is exposure to feminists who "randomly" wield things like that list "as a weapon" against you. These discussions are worth having because you and I and plenty of others have made progress and learned shit and because less douchey human beings as a result.

And the entire reason we've made any progress at all as a culture (for example, the fact that that policeman was explicitly violating department policy) is, I guess, because feminists "always miss the point" and "are useless as sand".
Fuck's sake, dude. In the late 1970s, spousal rape wasn't a crime in most of America and there were plenty of places in the US where a woman could not get a library card without her husband's signature. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out if a man needed his wife's signature to get a library card.

One of the douchey things you still do is consistently agree with feminists both on a broad scale and on specific principles, but treat all the shit you agree with (half of which you don't even ever think about because it's so ingrained at this point, but which plenty of people are still reacting negatively to or not taking seriously) as some kind of shining exception and project anything negative a woman/feminist does onto women/feminists as a whole.

Still relevant: that one XKCD.

(click to show/hide)

(P.S. guess who organized the slutwalk you went to, SURPRISE it's feminists)

Tamsin · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:26:46 AM »

Quote from: Kyle J Cardoza on June 16, 2011, 10:17:52 AM

Tamsin, that's the most rational thing anyone's ever said to me on the topic. Thank you. It's probably also the most helpful, but time will have to tell on that aspect.

You're welcome.

Sorta-funny story: I met my BF's mother last night. The first thing she said to me after hello was, "So I hear you know about gender studies and are good at talking about them." Then she started describing her relationship with her BF.

So, this was me inside:

I'm female, and I can look girly, but I'm not girly. There is a lot of me that is decidedly masculine. Both all-male men and all-female women seem to be speaking different dialects to me, so one of the reasons I started studying up on gender was to be able to talk with them. That meant I had to learn what they were actually saying...

It's, uh, complicated.

But you're welcome, and I hope it is helpful.

Count PuPPula · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:41:23 AM »

Quote from: S*S on June 16, 2011, 09:55:33 AM

because generally speaking, feminists always miss the point and are as useless as sand.

And you were doing so well.

=p

Rawr! I'm A Panda · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:45:45 AM »

I had a discussion with a guy the other day who insisted that he wasn't a feminist, that he believed in equal rights for all people.

I told him that that, by definition, made him a feminist, and he was all, "No...it just makes me a decent human being"

I think people have this idea that "feminism" means that those that identify as feminists are feminazis, who don't shave and think women are better than men.

I tried to explain to him that equality for all is like an umbrella, and that feminism, mens' rights, racial equality etc. are all under that umbrella. Being one doesn't automatically negate being another, but that at the same time, being one doesn't mean that you necessarily are all of them - i.e. you can be a racist feminist, as long as you believe that women should be equal to their male counterparts. I think that women who believe that women are better than men should not be identifying as feminists, incidentally, and I think it's those kind of women that Johnny is talking about.

/tangent.

S*S · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:49:24 AM »

Quote from: Tamsin on June 16, 2011, 10:07:23 AM

1) They hope that you will agree with them, and, given this tool, use it to forward their agenda for equality. What they want is for you to tell them you will do this, confirming they have a found a compatriot in you.

Do you actually believe the checklist I linked is a useful tool for forwarding an agenda for equality, or did you not click the link and are speaking in more general terms?

Count PuPPula · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:52:11 AM »

Quote from: Rawr! I'm A Panda on June 16, 2011, 10:45:45 AM

I had a discussion with a guy the other day who insisted that he wasn't a feminist, that he believed in equal rights for all people.

I told him that that, by definition, made him a feminist, and he was all, "No...it just makes me a decent human being"

I think people have this idea that "feminism" means that those that identify as feminists are feminazis, who don't shave and think women are better than men.

I tried to explain to him that equality for all is like an umbrella, and that feminism, mens' rights, racial equality etc. are all under that umbrella. Being one doesn't automatically negate being another, but that at the same time, being one doesn't mean that you necessarily are all of them - i.e. you can be a racist feminist, as long as you believe that women should be equal to their male counterparts. I think that women who believe that women are better than men should not be identifying as feminists, incidentally, and I think it's those kind of women that Johnny is talking about.

/tangent.

The being one doesn't mean you are the others is why one would not identify as a feminist I would think. It's a very specific focus. Maybe he feels he doesn't focus enough time in that one area to be a feminist. Also there's an active part to isms that makes it seem like you have to be out doing things to upset the status quo if you ascribe to a specific activism. I mean I believe in the goals of feminism but really would not consider myself a feminist.

It's not like labels mean anything anyway, though.

Bunner_Redux · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:53:37 AM »

Quote from: The P.u.P.P on June 16, 2011, 10:52:11 AM

It's not like labels mean anything anyway, though.

Tell that to the matress manufacturers....

Oh look! Humor! Yeah, you're all doomed.

Bunner_Redux · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »

And, boy-oh-boy or girl-oh-girl, did I miss out on a fun thread.
I'll read and respond more on this once "the fuel" is more thoroughly extricated from my system via my hepatic control centres.

Bunner_Redux · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2011, 11:05:01 AM »

Quote from: TIP on June 16, 2011, 10:56:37 AM

There are plenty of feminists who do or say dumb or shitty things, because "feminists" is a subset of "humans".

Wait, really? And I always thought they were a psycholigical warfare tactic implemented by those fiendish interstellar goons from Omicron Persei Eight.
Or was it Delta Draconics VII-A? I...I get confused.
The subsonic CIA transmissions from my fillings tend to get a little garbled.
Especially when I'm near a microwave. Not that I would ever be near a microwave; because I'm a manly man, and my woman-partner-servant-thing always prepares fresh consumable food for me because she has no existence of her own beyond the oven-sphere.

...Yeah, I got nothing. See you in a few hours, folks!

Rawr! I'm A Panda · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2011, 11:10:08 AM »

Quote from: TIP on June 16, 2011, 10:56:37 AM

I like how "don't shave", i.e. don't do extra work to make themselves look more sexually appealing, gets lumped in with "think women are better than men".

This whole "feminist = hairy-legged man-hating ugly lesbian FEMINAZI who's just bitter she can't get a man!" series of memes are basically the result of right-wing talk radio &etc and have spread remarkably thoroughly through the culture.

There are plenty of feminists who do or say dumb or shitty things, because "feminists" is a subset of "humans". Organized feminism has certainly had its issues with, oh, say, racism, or transphobia.
But there are very few women in the world who believe women are superior to men, and they have pretty much zero influence, media attention, or public platforms. The idea that they represent feminism is not because they are louder or get more air time, it's because regular feminists get dismissed as "feminazis" for doing and saying regular feminist things because that's easier than actually thinking about and dealing with the things they're saying.

"Feminazis!" is basically the equivalent of the "gay activists just want special rights!" line.

My "who don't shave, etc." was me saying what the general perceptions of feminists are. I certainly don't think that choosing not to shave in any way means they hate men, or vice versa.

Anyway, I equate "feminazi" to "woman who believes men are inferior to women and will take steps to make women 'more equal'". I am of the opinion that 'true' feminists are the ones who believe in true equality for everyone, and recognise that there are also ways in which men are disadvantaged - paternity leave for example. I'm not saying that the women who shout their objectives from the rooftops are feminazis, I'm saying that the ones who are overly aggressive and hate men and belief they are inferior are only hurting the cause of the ones who do believe that everyone should be equal regardless of gender.

But I'm also one of those people that believes that all people, everywhere, should be equal, and I will never understand why anybody hates anybody else for something that that person has no control over, or for their beliefs. In a perfect world, etc...

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Author Topic: Slutwalk & Feminism (Read 4932 times)