Author Topic: The "R" word (Read 3585 times)

NoxEquites · « **Reply #40 on:** February 09, 2011, 02:26:44 PM »

Wouldn't it be nice if scientific/medical terms could remain inviolate rather than the jackals of common speech sullying the original meaning?

007bistromath · « **Reply #41 on:** February 09, 2011, 02:29:25 PM »

Quote from: Scix on February 09, 2011, 01:21:48 PM

....linking to a recent vent on the other "R" word (which, thankfully, seemed to peter out).

...You guys.

This is truly a great moment in trolling history.

I have just discovered that "rapetard" is the most universally offensive collection of letters that can possibly be created.

my god, it's full of stars

machiavelli33 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 09, 2011, 02:50:02 PM »

Quote from: Pixie on February 09, 2011, 12:41:46 PM

I want to try to sum up my thoughts.
(click to show/hide)

I think that trying to force people to be "PC" is ridiculous. If people want to insult others, they'll find a way to do it. Those thoughts are still there. It often goes way, way too far and steps into situations where you could not possibly find someone who was offended.
People are often opposed to ideas that seem like they're getting "too PC" because it seems like words are going to start getting outright banned.
I don't want to go around trying to tell anyone "you must not use that word"... ANY word. I hope I've been successful in not even saying "you SHOULD not use that word". I tried to avoid doing that. Not only would it plain not WORK because I don't have the right to tell anyone that, it wouldn't really solve the underlying problem.
You get to use any words you choose, obviously, but other people will be out there forming an opinion of you based on those words. As you saw above, I explained something badly and caused myself to be misrepresented. Words are important, and I think that they should be chosen carefully.

Ideas about which words are "okay" and "not okay" basically come down to respecting other people. When someone is saying "that is a word that is hurled at my loved one, and it hurts me to see you use it as a casual insult," and you say something that boils down to "I don't care. Stop being over-sensitive and get over it", I think it shows a fundamental lack of respect for that person's experience.

For the most part, I feel like this is a community of thoughtful, considerate and compassionate people. Tolerant people. In that vein, This quote is from a comment thread on an article about this subject. I think it stands for itself without further context or explanation.

I think I should bow out of this thread, but I don't want it to seem like I'm storming off in a huff or slinking away with nothing but a lack of replies. It's just that I've said everything that I can really think of and I'm going in circles and no one is going to convince anyone else. I'm not angry. It's just too personal for me.

I agree with all this. If this was what you were getting at all along, then I don't think we were ever in disagreement at all, ever, in fact.
...which I've noticed happens a little more than I'd thought, I think.

Quote from: 007bistromath on February 09, 2011, 02:29:25 PM

I have just discovered that "rapetard" is the most universally offensive collection of letters that can possibly be created.

.............................
>: /

007bistromath · « **Reply #43 on:** February 09, 2011, 02:53:19 PM »

Well it is. Even I think it's awful.

Gudy · « **Reply #44 on:** February 09, 2011, 03:12:45 PM »

Quote from: Pixie on February 09, 2011, 12:10:01 PM

It's not the trait I find "unkind" (I don't know how that would even make sense?)-- it's using it in a way that equates it with a thing the user considers bad.

Does that help clear it up at all? I truly apologize if people read my words as suggesting that I personally equate "effeminate" with "bad". Because I REALLY don't. o_O

I'm sorry for that dig, which was a bit... unkind. You *are* a decent person, and as far as I am concerned there is no need to feel obligated to bow out of this discussion, except if it causes you too much emotional distress, and I'll do my best to keep that low from here on out...

What I wanted to get at, though, was the bolded part above, because that's the key to the whole thing: True, the stereotyping of gays as effeminate is impolite and inconsiderate, but the source of the power of the word gay (or any other, similar term, including "retarded") as an insult isn't that. It's the fact that those who use it that way consider the referent of that label inferior and/or threatening and generally Other.

As such, trying to get people not to use words like gay/fag/fairy or idiot/retard/stupid/moron as insults by being all PC about it is a) stupid, b) useless (because people will just pervert the currently accepted term for the condition and use that one as a pejorative) and c) counterproductive. You're just diverting all that energy away from the only thing that has a chance of making it all go away, namely raising the acceptance of the thing itself.

Pejoratives referring to a certain attribute will not, can not, go away unless and until that attribute is more or less universally considered normal and acceptable instead of inferior and/or threatening. And when it is, people will find other things to fixate on when trying to be unkind and insulting towards each other... :-P

Crystal · « **Reply #45 on:** February 09, 2011, 03:48:22 PM »

Quote from: Gudy on February 09, 2011, 03:12:45 PM

Pejoratives referring to a certain attribute will not, can not, go away unless and until that attribute is more or less universally considered normal and acceptable instead of inferior and/or threatening. And when it is, people will find other things to fixate on when trying to be unkind and insulting towards each other... :-P

This is it! Gudy has managed to articulate what I've been trying to form into words in my head. We don't need to teach people not to say these words, we need to teach them that people are people, no matter what their abilities or preferences or appearance. The issue isn't the word, or the reaction to it, or any of that. It's the attitude of all of society toward the Other, toward the persons they're describing with that word. We can try and get people to stop saying these words all we want, but until we make it ok to be gay or disabled or fat or a girl or whatever else, people will just find a new word to use. And then the cycle of trying to get them to stop saying that new word will have to start over.

LrsDude · « **Reply #46 on:** February 09, 2011, 04:42:38 PM »

Holy crap... I just realized. The word "retard" is a trochee. It may never go away, ever. Apparently trochees have some sort of power over people that makes them more fun to say than other types of words.

Shown here:
http://xkcd.com/856/

PeachFish · « **Reply #47 on:** February 09, 2011, 08:03:14 PM »

My aunt had Down's and I say retarded all the time.

The Revolution · « **Reply #48 on:** February 10, 2011, 11:01:37 AM »

Quote from: machiavelli33 on February 09, 2011, 08:08:48 AM

Personally the only reason I ever tell people to take it easy on anger and wrought emotion is that after the very necessary initial venting period, it ends up adding to stress.
Angry people are stressed people (and often stressful to deal with), and continual anger without a coming-to-terms tends to mean there's no inner peace.
Also it can be viewed as wasted energy.

But really, to each their own. I personally view meeting such things with grace and calm as the preferable way of handling things. Many Americans (and, as I've noticed from my tenure in this city, many New Yorkers) prefer to let anger boil, or to even meet force with equivalent force - which...while I understand, is a view I can't really say I care for.

I've been up and down the east coast, Cali, and to a few different countries. I have not noticed New Yorkers being ruder than anyone else. I was never actively spit on here as I was at Quebec (I almost forgave that as it was the year Bush got re-elected and I figured they just somehow knew I was American). I wasn't looked at and giggled over like I was in Cali. I didn't have people find out where I was from and made fun of for a good ten minute like I was in Florida. By and large, I just think New Yorkers are busier than most people.

Think about it. You need to know exactly what's going on and when because you want to catch the train back to where-ever. Doesn't leave a lot of time for idle chit-chat... But I still notice it. And really, people are just meaner the heavier the concentration becomes. What's the number now? 15 million people running back and forth over only 23 square miles? You're going to find dicks there, and you're going to remember them more. Just as you're going to find a lot of good people, and write them off as an abnormality.

I do get what you're saying, though. But I personally say hold on to your rage as long as there's a reason to in your mind. Just like I say hold on to your love, happiness, and caring, as long as it's not destructive. If you can harness it for good, and not self destructive reasons, you just gave yourself a great edge in life.

But, in truth, not many people can constructively harness that. So maybe some people should learn how to drop it until they can use it. Yay. We're at a cross-roads.

tweak · « **Reply #49 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:24:58 PM »

I have a problem with words that describe attributes and conditions of very real people being used in a derogatory way. Gay, fag, dyke, retard, etc. It's all deeply problematic to me. That doesn't mean it doesn't slip out occasionally, but I try really really hard not to let it. When it *does* slip out, it's not ever to disparage an individual, but to refer to a situation or event and I *still* think that's wrong. I cringe when I hear any of those things used cruelly. It sucks.

Cytherea · « **Reply #50 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:04:34 PM »

I've never used 'retard[ed]' or 'gay' or similar as a pejorative; tbh, they've never been part of my lexicon, and I am made uncomfortable by their use, as such. It's entirely possible that someone I meet, or someone they know, could have had these terms applied to them in earnest, and to use them in a negative sense is unkind.

I do use "moron[ic]", "idiot[ic]", "imbecile[ic]" and "stupid" to describe things, because they have not been used as valid psychological descriptors for something like a century now, and therefore the possibility that someone will be offended by them is very slight, imx. And, well, frankly, there is a linguistic hole where those words go, if you take them away.

Anumati · « **Reply #51 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:19:18 PM »

Quote from: Gudy on February 09, 2011, 03:12:45 PM

Pejoratives referring to a certain attribute will not, can not, go away unless and until that attribute is more or less universally considered normal and acceptable instead of inferior and/or threatening. And when it is, people will find other things to fixate on when trying to be unkind and insulting towards each other... :-P

Like the term 'Bastard'. Of the three primary usages as a noun, which one does no one use except in novels?

Quote

–noun
1. a person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child.
2. Slang.
a. a vicious, despicable, or thoroughly disliked person: Some bastard slashed the tires on my car.
b. a person, especially a man: The poor bastard broke his leg.
3. something irregular, inferior, spurious, or unusual.

This sort of thing is why I'm kind of neutral about using language like gay or retarded as an insult. I don't do it myself, and I think it's fairly horrible that people consider those groups such fair game for social derision that they are willing to use them as insults. Like Mach, I also think they show a lack of imagination and character on the part of the insulter.

But on the other hand...

Perhaps as time goes on the words 'gay' and 'retarded' will become as divorced from homosexuality and mental disability in the cultural mind as the words Cytherea listed in the post above currently are from their original usage. I mean, right here in this thread I saw someone including 'Idiot' in their list of insults, and no one batted an eye even though it used to be a type of classification for intellectual disability.

Scix · « **Reply #52 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:39:54 AM »

Bastard. Forgot about that one, good call.
Indian Giver started to go away, then it came back.
Oh, did I have Gyp on my list?

I actually once heard someone say, "I Jewed them down on the price." I think it's more about my sheltered upbringing than anything else, but I had never heard anyone say that, it shocked me speechless.

S_C · « **Reply #53 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:32:58 PM »

Not that it makes it a hell of a lot better, but they probably actually said "jewed" rather than "Jewed."

My mum used to talk about cheap people being "ikey," but she didn't realise what the word was/meant til I said something.

Scix · « **Reply #54 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:08:41 PM »

You're probably right, I just capitalize out of Hobbit.

S_C · « **Reply #55 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:30:31 PM »

I was trying to show that those people are likely to not be linking the sound that the word "jewed" makes with the idea of "Jewishness." Sorry if it came out badly.

Scix · « **Reply #56 on:** February 11, 2011, 07:34:50 PM »

Not at all, I got what you were saying.

Anumati · « **Reply #57 on:** February 11, 2011, 08:13:22 PM »

Quote from: S_C on February 11, 2011, 03:30:31 PM

I was trying to show that those people are likely to not be linking the sound that the word "jewed" makes with the idea of "Jewishness." Sorry if it came out badly.

Maybe not in Australia, where there are just not all that many Jews....

Klaus von Phisstybuns · « **Reply #58 on:** February 15, 2011, 01:38:06 AM »

Personally, what goes on in my home, with my friends, perhaps in a wonderful battle of witty retorts, is really up to us to decide. If it's acceptable to us, and we're in the privacy of my home, or another socially accepted venue between us, like a party, a back yard gathering of like minded people, then I wouldn't hesitate to engage. But we certainly can't be running around blathering to other people in public areas and expect them to groove to our wavelength. It's a tad pretentious (like I'm doing right now)

See? Shame on your for not seeing it my way.

I laugh at some pretty obscure things I find on the internet, or conversations I have with some friends of mine. However, that's because we're sharing 'this' just between the two (or more) of us; it changes when you add a variable.

It's not really the words, I guess. It's how their used in conversation, and especially against other people.

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Author Topic: The "R" word (Read 3585 times)