Author Topic: They Know Where You Are  (Read 1912 times)

Offline 007bistromath

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They Know Where You Are
« on: August 25, 2010, 02:16:37 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201315000

The Ninth Circuit court has ruled that it is legal for government agents to sneak onto your property, attach a GPS device to your car, and track all your movements from that point forward without a warrant.

I don't have anything to say about this myself. Just thinking about it makes me so angry I am nauseous, so it is not in my best interest to participate in discussion here. Hopefully some of you guys will have something to say.
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Offline NoxEquites

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 02:54:42 PM »
In response I believe all public officials should wear GPS leg bands so we know how they are spending our tax dollars.
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Offline Scix

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 03:45:18 PM »
I believe tracking devices have always been legal, this is just an update on the technology.
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Offline Valdrin

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 04:10:59 PM »
From what I've gathered from what I skimmed, it was the fact that the court has said it's okay to go onto your driveway and install one of these devices on your car while it's there.

Because, apparently, the driveway isn't your property because kids can run across it without your permission.  Not that you're not allowed to yell at them to get off your property, because it's your damn property not theirs.

Apparently, according to some of the judges, the only way you can reasonably expect privacy, and therefore tell the government to get the fuck off your lawn, is if you have a security gatehouse or electrified gate or a fence surrounding your property.

Fucking really?  That's just insane.

And then that, if there's a GPS installed like this, they want to say they don't need a warrant to track you?

Wow, man, fucking wow.  The balls, yo.

I can only hope that if anything like this ever found its way up here it would get squashed really fucking quick.  Sad thing is, I'm not sure if it would.  Half the time policy makers up here mirror what goes on south of us, and considering who's in power up here... would not put it past them.
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Offline marpa

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 04:31:09 PM »
From what I've gathered from what I skimmed, it was the fact that the court has said it's okay to go onto your driveway and install one of these devices on your car while it's there.

Because, apparently, the driveway isn't your property because kids can run across it without your permission.  Not that you're not allowed to yell at them to get off your property, because it's your damn property not theirs.

This will be interesting in Texas because you can legally shoot trespassers on any part of your property.  No warning required.  Just say you felt you, your family or your property was in danger.  Happened here before.  So if a Federal/State agent "sneaks" on to your property without identifying themselves or their purpose, I would think it would be a difficult leg to stand on to prosecute you if you shot them. 

Not that I'm saying I would shoot anyone (my entire property is fenced), but I will be interested to see how this plays out if the case comes up.
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 05:08:48 PM »
Don't Texans who do that to cops still get rung up? Wouldn't the feds completely disregard that law if one of theirs got shot?
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Offline marpa

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 07:09:03 PM »
That would be the big question.  I've seen it happen with an exchange student who was lost and didn't speak the language.  Head blown off in the middle of suburbia coming up the sidewalk cause he had the wrong house.  No charges filed.  Said it was all legal.  Now if this was a burglar sneaking in your drive way at night and messing with your car, shooting him would never even be questioned.  But how is one to know that the person crawling under your car is Federal/State law enforcement.  Also, if it went to court, it would be a jury trial, I am sure.  That's a big variable, I would think.
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 07:50:21 PM »
Yeah, I guess that a jury trial would rule out any shenanigans in the case of a cop, deputy, or Ranger getting shot. But if it's a fed, aren't they just as likely to bring the trial to someplace in the circuit other than Texas for this precise reason?
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Offline S*S

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 08:59:12 PM »
Wait, so they're allowed to plant a tracking device on your car if you took your car somewhere public? Like they could mess with your car without a warrant if you left it in the parking lot at the mall, or something?
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 10:16:48 PM »
That would make sense based on the judges' reasoning, but what's actually happening is that they can in fact do that while the car is on your own private property unless you have, at minimum, a fence with no holes and a lockable gate.
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Offline S*S

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 10:24:15 PM »
But I mean, even before that ruling, they could do this kind of stuff to your property as long as it wasn't somewhere "private"?
"You know, Johnny, watching your love life is like watching aliens fuck. You're not sure what exactly is going on, but it's both enchanting and uncomfortable." -Kyle J Cardoza
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 11:06:30 PM »
That I'm not sure about. I feel like doing that probably needed a warrant before now, but I could be wrong.
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Offline Scix

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 11:30:51 PM »
IANAL, but it is my understanding that that was already allowed (though if you catch 'em you can get rid of the device). Based on a crime drama, actually, so I don't know how reliable that is.
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Offline Gudy

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 10:11:36 AM »
I don't have anything to say about this myself. Just thinking about it makes me so angry I am nauseous

You know, that sums up my reaction pretty darn well, too.

What were they thinking?! Were they actually thinking? m(
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Offline marpa

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 06:24:50 PM »
IANAL, but it is my understanding that that was already allowed (though if you catch 'em you can get rid of the device). Based on a crime drama, actually, so I don't know how reliable that is.

I wonder if they charge you for the device if you find and destroy it?  Or charge you with destruction of property or something?   :?
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Offline Gudy

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 11:32:17 PM »
I wonder if they charge you for the device if you find and destroy it?  Or charge you with destruction of property or something?   :?

That wouldn't surprise me in the least. The obvious course of action is therefor NOT to destroy it, but to put it somewhere inconvenient: in a float on the nearest river or in the sewers, say.
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Offline julia

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2010, 10:47:53 AM »
... stupid fucks.

Offline toolazytoworktoobusytostop

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2010, 08:53:27 PM »
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. The obvious course of action is therefor NOT to destroy it, but to put it somewhere inconvenient: in a float on the nearest river or in the sewers, say.

Or do as Bart did, and attach it to a bird... Watch them try to track your movements then.
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Offline TeroWasHere

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 10:26:04 PM »
IANAL, but it is my understanding that that was already allowed (though if you catch 'em you can get rid of the device). Based on a crime drama, actually, so I don't know how reliable that is.
Good lord.  Crime dramas make life so... so DUMB for lawyers.

There are a couple reasons why this decision is crushingly problematic.  One has to do with the adoption of GPS, rather than older tracking devices.  The sort of devices the court dealt with previously were beepers that acted as an aid to help an officer follow a suspect.  Thing was, for those, you had to actually follow - they assisted in the tracking process and let you know how close you were, to make it harder for you to lose someone.  They DIDN'T let you monitor their location remotely and universally in real time. 

The second problem is that it allowed intrusion on to the curtilage of a person's property, which is definitely improper.  This is both a class issue (as the rich have fences), and a caselaw issue (as the curtilage is protected).

For more information, I suggest Judge Koizinski's pointed and legally sound dissent.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/08/12/08-30385.pdf

Offline LrsDude

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Re: They Know Where You Are
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2010, 10:18:05 PM »
For more information, I suggest Judge Koizinski's pointed and legally sound dissent.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/08/12/08-30385.pdf
...Law-speak is hard. But you're right, it does seem that the driveway is part of what is legally defined as your home, and therefore should be protected by the Fourth Amendment.

And the Fourth Amendment is a kickass amendment. We need more idealist activist judges knocking these kind of rulings down. What the hell was this court thinking? Don't they have to swear to uphold the constitution or something?