Author Topic: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?  (Read 1565 times)

Offline The Revolution

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This is stemming from this.

Quote
In the midst of allegations of police brutality and police aggression at the OWS protests, the U.S. Senate approved a bill that is said to “explicitly create a police state”: the National Defense Authorization Act. The NDAA, passed by a vote of 93 to 7, virtually stated that all of the United States may be considered a battlefield, and therefore the American military is permitted to indefinitely detain any American perceived to be a threat.

Several amendments were proposed by both Democrats and Republican Senators, which would have deleted the dangerous provisions that would allow the indefinite detention of American citizens. While most of those amendments were overwhelming voted down, a single compromise amendment was passed that was intended to quell fears that American citizens may be imprisoned indefinitely, though skeptics remain uncomfortable with the final outcome.

According to Firedoglake.com, sections 1031 and 1032 of the NDAA will:

1) Explicitly authorize the federal government to indefinitely imprison without charge or trial American citizens and others picked up inside and outside the United States;

(2) Mandate military detention of some civilians who would otherwise be outside of military control, including civilians picked up within the United States itself; and

(3) Transfer to the Department of Defense core prosecutorial, investigative, law enforcement, penal, and custodial authority and responsibility now held by the Department of Justice.

AddictingInfo.org adds:

A provision of S. 1867, or the National Defense Authorization Act bill, written by Senators John McCain and Carl Levin, declares American soil a battlefield and allows the President and all future Chief Executives to order the military to arrest and detain American citizens, innocent or not, without charge or trial. In other words, if this bill passes and the President signs it, OWS protesters or any American could end up arrested and indefinitely locked up by the military without the guaranteed right to due process or a speedy trial.

Recently, there was a man picked up planning to blow up The USS Intrepid. He was born here. He turned to Islam. This happened.

I get people are scared. I get that so many older Americans don't recognize the world they live in, and they are panicked. But in their panic, they are giving in. They are stripping the ideal of America for... God, I don't know.

These same people who were afraid that Obama would turn America into a Socialist state are more than willing and happy to make it into a Police State. Where the people they once said they wanted to protect from ideals that will lead to the ruination of this country... could be arrested and detained indefinitely and without any due process. That is America broken down right there. That isn't American.

I don't know what to say now. A mixture of it being late and abject shock. I don't know.
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 12:17:49 AM »
America is getting pretty well fucked up at the moment. It's my feeling that it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 12:18:15 AM »
*gets "disappeared" after making that comment*
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 01:01:05 AM »
Just keep voting, I'm sure it'll all work out.*



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Offline Arachne

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 01:32:28 AM »
...  :|

What the fuck.
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Offline Bunner_Redux

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 02:16:19 AM »
America is getting pretty well fucked up at the moment. It's my feeling that it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Yeah, that's basically my feeling in a nutshell.
I'm just afraid it's going to take something really drastically awful to get the American renaissance kick-started.

There's a lot more I can say on this, but I'm tired. Need sleeps.
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Offline Gudy

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 02:45:16 AM »
America is getting pretty well fucked up at the moment. It's my feeling that it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
With the amount of weight America has at its disposal to throw around, both nationally and internationally, I shudder to think just how bad that "worse" is going to be. For everyone.

I'm a little unclear how that can be anywhere near constitutional, though...
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 02:54:01 AM »
Constitutional? It doesn't have to be, unless someone challenges it through the courts.

And the Supreme Court justices are nominated by the presidents.

And the entire politician pool from which our presidents come is full of back-patting nepotism and constant political inbreeding.

So... I don't know. Not sure how well I trust the Constitution, in all its wisdom, to protect us from this kind of shit.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 03:20:20 AM »
We're the 'Land of the Free'. Freedom is what America does best!

Yet we have the highest incarceration rate in the Western world by a staggering amount, we cut unemployment benefits and Planned Parenthood while spending obscene quantities of money perpetrating a 'drug war', and we are trying to push through a bill to allow us to lock up citizens without any rights or due process.

My father was traveling cross country with his three youngest daughters- six, eight, and twelve- with a deck of magic cards in his bag. It was his direct damage deck. It had a sticky note on it labeling the deck 'BOOM'.

For that, he was pulled into a back room and patted down, then his anus was penetrated, to ensure he didn't have explosives hidden up there while he travelled from the east to west coast with his daughters. Because his deck of magic cards said 'Boom'.
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 04:59:37 AM »
Constitutional? It doesn't have to be, unless someone challenges it through the courts.

And the Supreme Court justices are nominated by the presidents.

The more important problem is that the only people who would have standing to challenge it would be enemies of the state.

The only infinitely reliable portion of the Constitution is the Second Amendment.
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 05:28:38 AM »
Not true. Felons are stripped of that right.
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Offline Scix

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 05:32:39 AM »
And yet somehow I am less afraid on a daily basis than I was int he cold war. I don't know what that's from, maybe just better PR, or that the danger seems to be coming from stupidity. Or maybe I've just absorbed 20 years of dumb resignation.



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Offline LrsDude

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 08:51:49 AM »
Maybe if voting made a more meaningful difference? I mean, if the NDAA passed by a vote of 93 to 7, can we really say with honesty that democrats and republicans are different in a meaningful way?

And the truth is, they don't have to be, because over 99% of the country is unaware of the NDAA whatsoever. This country is politically disinterested. How can we get them more interested? The country simply needs to get worse. A LOT worse. So bad that the need for the average person to understand policy outweighs complacency. Of course, that may never happen. 1984 anyone? I could see us getting there incrementally over the next century or so. It's just a matter of increasing policies and restricting behavior very gradually.


Offline S*S

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 09:18:30 AM »
This seems like a recurring problem. Someone submits a 500 page Bill to Give Everyone a Fluffy Kitten, and section 397 says that a foetus is a person and that women who get abortions should be shot. Senators then have a choice to oppose the bill and go on the news as Senator Kitten-Hating Asshole, or pass the damn thing.

It seems like a problem that needs a comprehensive administrative solution, but I'm not sure how it would work legally. Maybe for particularly large bills, you should have to submit to the senate and then wait a period of two months before it can actually be passed. That'd give people time to demand small alterations and make it clear under what circumstances they'd agree to vote for the bill. Or you should be able to vote conditionally, which would be tricky, but it seems like a lot of senators are smart enough to parse the necessary legalese, or at least fall into line when someone highlights a very particular section, displays it on a projector, and demands a conditional "Yes" vote hinging on it's removal.
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Offline Dral

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2011, 09:30:27 AM »
It does seem bizarre that stuff can be tacked onto a bill that bear no relationship to the original purpose. Any element of a bill in Britain has to be covered in the 'long title' (the description of the purpose of the bill). So you can't stick an amendment about spending into a bill about the age of consent, for example.
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Offline Tamsin

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2011, 09:56:52 AM »
Tacking on unrelated stuff to get it passed is a time-honored bit of American political trickery or strategy, depending on how you feel about the line item in question. This is why the line-item veto exists. Most state governors get it. The presidents have been trying to get it for a while and  had it briefly in '96 (I remember watching a news story about Clinton exercising it).

More infos.

I will be the first to admit we're looking rather fucked here. Not quite ready to declare the American experiment a failure yet, but I'm also getting my UK (well, EU) passport reissued. Dual nationality for the win, eh?
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Offline K

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2011, 10:14:39 AM »
Maybe if voting made a more meaningful difference? I mean, if the NDAA passed by a vote of 93 to 7, can we really say with honesty that democrats and republicans are different in a meaningful way?

I've been saying this for a while: somewhere along the line, our political spectrum became a goddamn horseshoe. That's a dangerous proposition, especially when you depower the moderates.
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Offline TIP

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2011, 10:42:46 AM »
I mean, if the NDAA passed by a vote of 93 to 7, can we really say with honesty that democrats and republicans are different in a meaningful way?
Yes.
And it's important that we don't forget that, because even though they're quite similarly shitty in some ways, the latter are incredibly more shitty than the former on an entire host of issues, and if given the chance will ride a tidal-wave of shit into office to shit on poor people, gay people, women, and anyone else they don't care for.
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Offline 007bistromath

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2011, 11:10:43 AM »
Not true. Felons are stripped of that right.
Felons have all sorts of guns. The 2nd is a statement of fact more than intention. Cold, dead hands, etc. People who are armed and willing to use force against their government when necessary cannot be oppressed.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 11:13:24 AM by 007bistromath »
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Offline The Revolution

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Re: What will it take to regain the Concept of 'America', or is it lost?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2011, 11:23:21 AM »
Maybe if voting made a more meaningful difference? I mean, if the NDAA passed by a vote of 93 to 7, can we really say with honesty that democrats and republicans are different in a meaningful way?



Using this model because for the life of me I can't find the actual numbers (it's still close to it closing), Given that only 4 Republicans out of 215 voted Nay and the Democrats were somewhat evenly split, I'd say very much so. At the end of the day, Politics isn't about running out country to them. It's their job. It's what they use to put food on the table. And it's a popularity contest to do so. Being a democrat isn't that popular any more because Obama didn't have a magic wand to wave and fix everything. A lot of Democrats are pulling away from the 'democratic notion' to bill themselves as a new choice.

and I'm not sure if I'm right, but anyone is allowed to correct me. i welcome it.

216 to 160. Even if all the democrats voted against it... would they have had a chance in hell if the vote was the same for the Republicans?
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