http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00168

Yeah, that's right. Him and 21 other traitors to liberalism.

Fuck this government.

Generally politics things have gone in debate. *shrugs*

"Traitors to liberalism"?  Wasn't this attitude part of the problem in the first place?

He voted for the bill to update FISA. This bill had telecom immunity included because of a complete lack of strong opposition to telecom immunity in the Senate, the House, and the general public at large. The sad fact is that, while the netroots and while progressives like myself may feel very strongly about the issue of telecom immunity, most people do not. Most people figure that, if they were in charge of a telephone company and after 9/11 the government came in and told them that the government needed to install some equipment to fight terrorism and keep Americans safe, they would go along with it.

That's the problem, most people in this country don't feel that deeply about telecom immunity in FISA. A majority oppose warrantless wiretapping, and a smaller majority may even oppose telecom immunity, but they completely failed to make their voices heard in enough of a way to make a difference. Even if Obama had voted against the bill, or sat it out entirely like McCain did, it would have passed.

And the truth is, objectively, it's not that big of an issue. When you consider all of the things that the Bush Administration has done, the issue of whether or not AT&T should be sued simply doesn't rank that highly. If this is a make or break issue for anybody, they need a whirl through the Total Perspective Vortex. Realistically the odds of any political candidates positions agreeing 100% with any individual voter's positions are very low, and odds are that such a candidate wouldn't be elected, as political candidates (especially for national office) have to have broad appeal. There's some things that we idealistic progressives will simply never get, even though by all rights we should. Those things are:
-A pullout from Iraq by the end of the year
-convictions and jail time for Bush, Cheney, and associated conspirators
-lawsuits and fines for any business that went along with the Bush Administration
and I'm sure there's many more.

We're not going to get these things. This does not mean that government is a complete failure, it means that government is riddled with compromises. I'll be happy with an end to state-sponsored torture, an eventual withdrawal from Iraq (we want to be gone, they want us gone, let's make it happen), not going to war with Iran, increased subsidies for green energy, government acknowledgment of the climate crisis (instead of petulant refusal to open all those cautionary emails from the EPA), and so on.

But if you want to vote for McCain, or not vote at all, or vote for Nader or Barr, go right ahead. Just don't bitch about McCain winning. Change takes time, and leaving the game when you don't get everything you want, when the first pawn gets captured, is petulant and defeatist.

I don't care about this issue, either. Sure, it would've been nice if corperations were the type of entities to make a stand for liberty and civil rights at the possible risk of legal censure, but for the most part, being legally compelled to do something by a government doesn't make you evil.

I do think the whole immunity thing IS bullshit, as it smells of backroom dealings or behind the scenes manipulation. Who says the american public shouldn't be allowed to hold whoever they damn well please accountable for this, should evidence arise that causes them to feel like it, later? At the same time, though, Id rather hold accountable the people who were actually responsible.

There's energy that people are expending on this fight that could be much better spent on clearer fights. It's hard enough to get people to see the problem with the FISA issue, much less the nuances of the telecom immunity fight. The constitution has already been shredded. An old woman got ticketed outside of a McCain rally for merely holding up a sign that said "McCain=Bush". That to me is a bigger deal then telecom immunity.

what

sauce plox

Is this that old "compromise" thing I keep hearing Democrats should be doing more? Because you know what? Fuck that shit. Call me an idealist, but if enough people stop caring about the "small" abuses, it will only invite more of them, as well as more of the bigger ones, since those will become the new "small" abuses. I mean, who's gonna care about habeus corpus if there's a bigger issue on the table, like say, a secret police running around? This is one of the places where that old slippery slope argument is really something to worry about, because as history has shown time and time again, all descent into an oppressive society starts small. Just because there are abuses more egregious doesn't mean that the less egregious abuses are ok. They're still abuses, and there's still no excuse for voting for them the way Obama did. And it's not like we liberals have limited energy or resources to fight shit like this -- I mean, come on, how much energy would it have taken for Obama and a larger number of Dems in the Senate to, you know, vote AGAINST this bill? Is it that much to "fight" for? You raise your damn hand, and you say, "Nay".

As for Obama voting for this? It's go left in the primary, and run to the center in the general. He's a politician, not the messiah. I'm going to respect him a hell of a lot less for this, that's for sure, and I actually think he isn't doing himself any favors by pandering to the right and right-of-center (since if anyone is solidly for McCain, it's that group), but I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

PS: But, Imaginary, don't you know we don't have the time or energy to sue large corporations for government-sponsored white collar crime? After all, who can expect a company to go for anything other than profits, especially when we do have SUCH bigger things to worry about.

Yes, that is sarcasm. Yes, I am angry, because it's gotten to the point where even self-identified left "extremists" like Jabba are starting to get apathetic about liberal causes, which in itself as a leaning to the right. And that makes people like me look real crazy, all because we actively care about crazy things like checks and balances, rule of law, and civil liberties.

And again, why can't we do both? Are our resources really that limited? Again, all the Senators had to do was vote No. There is no need to prioritize here other than feeling scared because we're feeling overwhelmed... which is fine, but not an excuse to give up any fights.