Author Topic: I guess this is the right place to put this...  (Read 1487 times)

Offline Rawr! I'm A Panda

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I guess this is the right place to put this...
« on: September 16, 2011, 11:16:53 AM »
Ok, you guys, I really need your help. I need to keep this as general as possible because I am probably going to end up copy-pasting a lot of it to another forum where I need to be a lot more low-key about how much I say, so I hope you don't get too confused.

Yesterday I became aware that far, far too much of my communication is via email, text, or IM, and also that when I get stressed out and/or nervous I shut down a LOT. To the point where I am largely in-communicative. Obviously, this is bad, but for the most part I could deal with that. But not anymore.

The person who made me aware of this is someone I care about more than it is possible to explain. He is one of the best friends I could ever ask for and he's done so much good for me over the past year and a bit. He's put up with more crap from me than any reasonable person should ever have to. I love him. Absolutely and completely love him. I don't want anybody else, and that is new for me. It has never happened before, even when I was in a 4 year relationship, but it has happened with him, even though there is no relationship.

So enough backstory. Yesterday it was established that Serious Conversations and anything which could cause drama or confusion has to be done either by phone or face to face. And THAT is where the problem is.

Johnny will tell you that I am bad at communication. The day we broke up we didn't speak to each other all day because I was annoyed at him for not waking up and he was annoyed at me for...something...and then I got annoyed at him for not talking to me and I failed to consider that JUST MAYBE that might be because I hadn't said a word to him all day. A similar thing happened on Saturday when I saw the above guy. I was stressed the fuck out for various reasons and I was nervous because he makes me feel like a 12-year-old schoolgirl.

I am bad at phonecalls. My social phobia? Is nothing compared to my phonecall-making-phobia. I have been having a panic attack since he said this to me last night. I need to fix it. I need to fix it NOW.

Essentially, at my worst, I am physically incapable of speech. I stutter and I mumble and I tremble and I cannot say what I need to say, even if I desperately want to. I shut down faster than you would ever believe. It's worse in person but anything which is in any way important I find practically impossible to say out loud to the person I need to say it to.

I don't even know what I expect you guys to say, but I need help with it. I cannot fuck this up. I really, really can't. I adore him and I just...I can't lose him. I'm terrified of doing this but I'm more terrified of what happens if I don't, but that doesn't mean I can just do it just like that.

Help me, zch? :(
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 11:38:17 AM »
When something serious comes up and there is a phone call (it's probably gonna come up over IM or similar, and then he'll say, "I am gonna call you so we can talk about this") there is always a time when the phone call, and thus your anxiety, will end.

While you are on the phone there are a lot of things you can do to make it less stressful. Keep an IM window open, and if you're having trouble articulating a point, tell him you're typing it to him. Better yet, tell him beforehand that you might need to do this once in a while, and promise to try to keep it to a minimum. That way you have an out if you need it.

If the conversation starts going the wrong way/you say something that wasn't what you meant and it went badly/there is, in fact, drama, you can always send an email. Clearing things up by saying, "When I said _____ I didn't mean it in that sense. I meant to say _____, but was unable to find the words, and the nearest approximation I could find on demand had a completely different meaning that I didn't think of. Sometimes I have trouble thinking on my feet in phone conversations because I feel put on the spot, and I wanted to let you know what I really meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Call me back when you get this." -- That way you get to clarify and properly articulate things in an email where you are in your element, and the serious decisions still can be discussed in person or on a phone.

Two key points to remember: Any relationship of any kind will have its miscommunications, misunderstandings, rough spots and horrifyingly awful moments based on communication problems. But most relationships (basically all except "enemy" and "nemesis" types) also have a lot of wonderful moments, and those not only counteract but completely obliterate the bad spots, as long as they aren't repeated occurrences that are actually based on a deeper issue and not just the method of communication.

Point two: Telephones are scary as shit and I won't even call my best friend to hang out without sending an email first. Talking to someone and being completely on the spot, and not having that half-second to look over and reconsider and edit what you're saying, is an experience that causes me so much anxiety that I just don't even want to do it, and also it feels awkward when someone doesn't hear you and they have to ask you to repeat yourself, and all kinds of ick. But with the right people, phone and in-person contacts can be super enjoyable (eg sweet-talkin' with a lover, sex, a reassuring phone call from a parental figure, even a job interview if it goes well) and are totally worthwhile.

You won't need to stress if this guy is worthwhile, and it definitely seems like you think he is. He'll understand if you're having trouble with those methods of communication, and you will both adjust and figure things out as they come up. Take a deep breath. Relax. Panic a little if you have to but don't forget how great it can be to have a good conversation with a great person who you adore and who adores you (in at least some sense, if not yet in the "we are dating and in love and we totally just had sex!!" phase)
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Offline Rawr! I'm A Panda

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 11:49:00 AM »
Thank you Narcissa <3.

I like the idea of being able to type it out if I can't say it out loud - that would be perfect for me - but I don't know if he would be ok with that. I know he definitely wouldn't be ok with me having to explain myself over email because a lot of the issue he has is that it's a lot easier for me to hide things and be stubborn and argumentative when there's no human element.

This is all kind of positive, really, because it does show that even though he is fed up of all the drama, he cares about me enough to want to try and work at it still. He said that I confused him on Saturday because I've said all these things and told him how much I want him and love him and all of that, but I was so off on Saturday for various reasons that he got confused and stuff.

Argh. This is all so stressful and complicated :(.
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Offline Count PuPPula

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 11:56:09 AM »
Also, maybe you should stick up for yourself a bit more. I mean, this dude shouldn't be completely in charge of how you communicate...
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Offline Rawr! I'm A Panda

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 12:02:41 PM »
Also, maybe you should stick up for yourself a bit more. I mean, this dude shouldn't be completely in charge of how you communicate...

No, he shouldn't, but he is right. This is something which has been an issue for me for a really long time, it happens with everyone (not just him). I do need to do this for myself, and this is just the kick up the butt I needed.
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Offline Narcissa

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 12:03:18 PM »
I can see where the email thing would be a last resort. I've had to use it a couple of times, or in one or two cases a hand-written letter, but it's not something that can happen in every conversation. Those misunderstandings will become more and more rare as you get more practice on the phone, so you won't even need that option, really.

I don't know much about drama, except that it generally takes two (preferably more) to create it. But it can be avoided by everyone involved giving a little and trying to accommodate the other person/s involved. He needs to accept you taking a moment to respond to something sometimes. The phone is great; it guarantees that you're not just giving him some tiny portion of your attention while IMing 10 other people and playing a video game, and it allows for voice contact, which can be a wonderful relationship-builder. But if it makes you uncomfortable, he will have to deal with that at some point. Chances are you'll need text and internet crutches a lot less as you get used to talking to him directly, but when you do, he must respect that, or else there will be drama... and it will be at least 80% his fault.
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Offline Cytherea

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 01:45:08 PM »
Tbh, I have a lot of the same issues. I hate talking on the phone at the best of times and will actively avoid it whenever conceivably possible, and cannot fathom having a Serious Conversation that way.

In person, I'm a little better, but when I'm emotionally attached to whatever the topic at hand is, I start crying, which interferes with my ability to speak clearly. Not to mention, 99.999% of the human race then starts focusing on the crying rather than what I'm trying to say, which is just counterproductive. The crying is a completely physiological reaction that I have absolutely no control over, and it makes it a LOT easier for me if the other person in the conversation will just ignore the crying entirely and let me get words out at my own pace. (To date, Darth is the only person who's ever managed this; I credit his ability to do so with a decent-sized chunk of why our communication tends to be so good and open and clear.)

A tactic that's worked for me, as well, when the words just will not come or cannot be forced out of my throat, is IMing while we're both in the same room -- and sometimes while we're sitting side-by-side and looking at one another's screens. It seems like a cop-out, but if you're both in the room together, you can each TELL that the other person is focusing on the conversation at hand, and you can still get a bit of body language to help interpret meaning. So it really is a lot better than just not saying whatever it is I cannot force myself into saying out loud.

In conclusion: **HUGS** I have so much sympathy for you, Pandababe. I hope you find a solution that works for both of you -- and that he's willing to meet you halfway. <3

Offline *SkaKitty*

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2011, 09:03:21 AM »
I agree with all these techniques, let us know how you get on <3
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Offline Arachne

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2011, 08:30:52 PM »
I used to be really, really super bad at relationship communication, and communication in general. I would typically enter a relationship, begin to become spooked by something, dismiss my feelings as irrational and stubbornly pretend they didn't exist, tell myself I was stupid for feeling that way, devolve into an angst-spiral of self-loathing and feeling that way even though it didn't 'make sense', and then complete implode the relationship without the second party ever even knowing I'd been upset about anything in the first place.

I made cursory efforts when it became too much, but by then my feelings would usually be so convoluted and guilty that none of it made any sense to the second party, and attempting to explain things didn't usually go well at all.

For me, what changed was... starting the relationship online. Getting to know someone over text and becoming accustomed to speaking openly in a much less threatening environment. Saying the hard things was still hard, but my boyfriend was very patient, and didn't let me just drop it. Even now, I try to dismiss things as being inconsequential or that I'm just being dumb, but he gently insists that I just say it anyway and get it out in the open.

I don't know. Using my words instead of just telling myself how dumb I was to think or feel that way was a habit that was formed in text first, and then reinforced verbally.

Now I communicate like a pro! ... to my boyfriend, anyway. I still have a hard time in face-to-face adversary type confrontations, and my mouth gets all stupid and heavy and not-talky. But starting with one person makes it a little easier.

My advice? Baby-steps.
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Offline DarthParadox

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 10:11:20 PM »
Would it help to start getting more used to phone calls by calling friends and talking about random crap?  If you can get used to phone calls in a low-stress lets-just-shoot-the-shit environment, maybe it'll help get you used to more serious types of vocal communications.

Just a thought.  I imagine calling the US is a bit on the pricey side, and time zones are a pain in the ass, but if you ever want to just talk about nothing in particular, I'm happy to give you my number and figure out a time to chat.
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Offline catfishncod

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 02:11:49 PM »
Just a thought.  I imagine calling the US is a bit on the pricey side, and time zones are a pain in the ass, but if you ever want to just talk about nothing in particular, I'm happy to give you my number and figure out a time to chat.

That's what Skype-phone is for, non?
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Offline DarthParadox

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 11:01:49 PM »
True!  I keep forgetting about Skype.  I definitely need to install it one of these days.
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Offline Rawr! I'm A Panda

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 04:18:21 AM »
YOU GUYS YOU GUYS.

I made a phone call last night to him!

And it went ok! I was talkative, mostly! I didn't get all awkward or anything!

Er, until...

...he started talking about my...uh...stubborn, competitive streak, which is a Big Thing for him. I said (which is true, as far as I can remember) that I wasn't really aware of it until I knew him and he made me aware of it. I mean, I knew I was a bit competitive, but not to the point which I have now realised I really, really am. But he didn't believe me, and at that point I shut down, because my option was to either lie and say he was right, or to carry on telling him it's the truth. Both of those things would have ended up the same way: with him berating (that's a bit strong, but mocking isn't quite right either) me for lying.

So then I couldn't think of anything to say aaaaaaaaaaand he just went, "I guess this is the end of the conversation then" and hung up.

I don't know how to make him believe the things which he finds a bit off. I'd just told him about why I find it difficult to say names out loud in front of people, which is the most ridiculous reason EVER and embarrasses me, so it's not like I wasn't being open and stuff?

Fucking fuck fuck.
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Offline S_C

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 05:24:17 AM »
Dear Panda,

I'm afraid this chap sounds, to me, as though he is a total cock.

His behaviour seems borderline abusive to me.

That's all.

Sarah_C
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Offline Tamsin

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 06:30:40 AM »
He did WHAT.

Oh my gods, I would never just say the conversation was over and hang up on even a long-term SO, not unless we'd been having an outright yelling match over the phone and I had to just STOP before we totally lost it.

So, like, once. ONCE. And I immediately regretted it and called back to talk it over sanely.

What you describe is this guy being manipulative and trying to put you in a place where you feel bad for competing with him - ie, challenging him, standing up to him, holding your own in the relationship - in such a way that he hasn't given you any good options to get out of it (lying or opening yourself up to a berating). Now, stuck in that place, you felt bad. Then when you were feeling vulnerable and upset over the place he'd put you in, he disengaged from the conversation and made you feel like it was your fault, leaving you stuck in that bad place, feeling lonely because he just deprived you of his company, and if you accept the rules of his little game, also feeling bad because it's your fault and knowing the only way out is to agree with him and let him berate you.

Do that enough times and you'll start checking yourself before you go to stand up to him, and berating yourself in your head, just to not end up back in that nasty little place.

I am sorry, but this guy sounds like a dickish piece of work. He's not helping your phone anxiety, either.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 06:33:16 AM by Tamsin »
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Offline Rawr! I'm A Panda

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 07:21:12 AM »
I did kind of make a "Mmm" sound in between him saying that and then hanging up.

The whole...not believing a word I say about anything ever unless it fits in with his little ideal world of rational sane human beings...thing does bother me.

He told me last night that I bring out a competitive streak in him that doesn't exist when he's around other people who AREN'T stubborn and argumentative and competitive (I am absolutely 100% definitely these things, by the way). Eh, I dunno. I don't really have time to explain this properly, but essentially:

I know he can be a dickhead. I am fully, fully aware of it. I'm not really blaming myself for last night aside from not being able to stand my ground (but I can't do that with anybody), because I know that it is his fault that both my options ended with him being a dickface.

BUT he can also be amazing. He can make me smile with the tiniest amount of effort. It's fucking irritating, but eugh. Yeah.
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Offline Cytherea

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 09:02:27 AM »
Simply being able to be amazing doesn't make someone not abusive. That's frequently how abusers work -- they give you both the carrot AND the stick, and make you think it's YOUR fault when they pull the carrot away and give you the stick instead. It's a pretty effective animal training methodology, albeit one that sucks.

My worst-in-retrospect relationships were like a rollercoaster -- when they were up, they were way, way, way up, and when they were down, they were way, way, way down... and the ups seemed higher in contrast to the downs.

Offline Tamsin

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 10:01:50 AM »
Also, bear in mind that this kind of behavior teaches you not to disagree with him and to overvalue the times when he is nice to you. :(

A sneaky part of it is that you start thinking that you can't find something as good with someone else, and then you start being afraid not to have him any more... and you say you're terrified of losing him. Please note - I would be horribly upset if Haok and I broke up, but I am not terrified of losing him. I don't have anxiety that we could break up at any time, so I better be nice and put up with his bullshit endearing yet annoying foibles, and the reason I don't have that anxiety is that he doesn't use the threat of leaving me as a tool to compel my behavior in the direction he wants. This isn't to say I don't have anxieties, just that my anxieties boil down to "is he happy/satisfied with situation in question?" and "I hope current problem gets worked out" and not "is my behavior going to make him leave this time? How much will it suck to make him not leave/come back?"

Incidentally, minor abandonments count as threats of leaving you. It's sort of like, "if you keep behaving in a way I don't want you to, here is a taste of what I will do".
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Offline *SkaKitty*

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 10:08:14 AM »
So when he said he 'didn't believe' you, did he literally say that, and then silence? I'm just wondering about his reasons to feel threatened by you by seeming to get angry?
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Offline Gudy

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Re: I guess this is the right place to put this...
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 11:00:15 AM »
S_C said it all, really.
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